Doing Away With Driver's Licenses

[Patriot]

Do I advocate the destruction of our current system??  In short...damn skippy! 

Well good luck with that approach, sparky.  That's the cherry on your malcontent cake.  Poor slaves, poor indians, poor women, poor this, poor that.  All at the hands of the white man.  While the native populations here were surely without flaw in their dealings, what about the poor blacks sold into that slavery by their own in Africa. What about the whites who fled oppression over the decades worldwide to come here.  It's always somebody elses fault, isn't it?

Yes, there are many flaws in our system, and in others as well.   Since you have determined that the Republic is beyond repair, I challenge you to lay out your new replacement system here for us to see in detail.  Let's assume you could have your way & wipe out the Republic.  With that  form of governance gone, how 'bout you show us the plans for your Varmitocracy. 

Tell us the names of the perfect souls who shall govern us so flawlessly under your new plan.  Show us how to avoid the humanness that has tainted the plans of man for millennia, regardless of race or origin. Prove your solution so we can share in your knowledge of the mechanics of a better way.   And if you can, I'm all for it.  Just be sure not to impart your own biases therein.  Make it perfect for all of us, please.  Avoid the flaws of our current systems.  No disagreements, no need for future change, a system where individual liberties abound without any impediment and all prosper.

If the solution is replacement vs repair, fill the vacuum for us... if you can.

As age overtakes you, and it will, you may find that such a narrow view and the bitterness it breeds make lousy companions for the soul.

[Varmit]

Well good luck with that approach, sparky.  That's the cherry on your malcontent cake.  Poor slaves, poor indians, poor women, poor this, poor that.  All at the hands of the white man.  While the native populations here were surely without flaw in their dealings, what about the poor blacks sold into that slavery by their own in Africa. What about the whites who fled oppression over the decades worldwide to come here.  It's always somebody elses fault, isn't it?

Yes, it was mostly at the hands of the white man.  You really want to do a comparison as to who broke treaties between whites and natives?  I'm not saying that the Natives were perfect, but damn, at least have the courage to admit the truth.  Yes, blacks were sold into slavery but who bought them?  If you're going to play the blame game make sure everyone gets their fair share.

As to the rest of your post...there is no perfect solution.  But we could start with the Truth.  We could at least make a real attempt at restitution.  We as a people could start actually living by the principals that we say we hold dear.  As a country, we could come to the realization that not everyone wants to live like we do.  We could find our honor not as americans, but as human beings.  The solution is not a Return to what was but a change to what could be.  But that ain't gonna happen because to few are not willing to change their mindset, something that has been illustrated time and again on this very forum. 

In short, I don't have all the answers that will fit everybody.  But I do know that what we have now, or what we had in the past is not working. 

[Patriot]

If you're going to play the blame game make sure everyone gets their fair share.

Please remember that admonition as you continue to lay so many of America's ills squarely at the feet the whites, present or past.

As to the rest of your post...there is no perfect solution.  But we could start with the Truth. 

On that we agree fully.

We could at least make a real attempt at restitution. 

Some of my ancestors fled the oppressive rule of Tsarist Russia.  My wife's family the oppressive controls imposed by Nazi Germany on non-Jewish whites in the Netherlands. Please tell us what line we can get into in order to get our reparations and restitution. Ain't gonna happen, and you know it. Get over it.  Get past this 'you owe me a debt cause your granddaddy oppressed (lied too, cheated, enslaved, otherwise dealt dishonestly with) my granddaddy' bullshit. There ain't enough restitution to go around.  We start  where we start and make the best what we have.

We as a people could start actually living by the principals that we say we hold dear.

'We', 'they', them', 'us'.   You put a white, a black, a mexican, an indian, a liberterian, a progresseve, a democrat, a republican, a communist, a farmer, a homeless person, a prostitute, and a corporate executive all in the same room (America) and YOU get a consensus on what principles they hold dear.  That's the easy part... now create a system of governance that protects those principles for, and to the satisfaction of all concerned.  Including the few billion who weren't in the room to begin with.

As a country, we could come to the realization that not everyone wants to live like we do.  We could find our honor not as americans, but as human beings. 

We could, and in a in a more perfect world full of perfect people we could actually live it.  A more perfect world that included people without heritage, people without pain, people without individual ideas, people without memories.

The solution is not a Return to what was but a change to what could be.  But that ain't gonna happen because to few are not willing to change their mindset, something that has been illustrated time and again on this very forum. 

So just shredding what we have on a whim like children having a temper tantrum isn't very workable?

In short, I don't have all the answers that will fit everybody.  But I do know that what we have now, or what we had in the past is not working. 

That is a more reasoned view.  None of us have the perfect answers.  What we have is one of the few systems that is changeable (at many levels, from small town to the national) without having to kill some despot dictator or a few warlords first and then wondering what will fill the vacuum.  No, in our system, being as fully informed as possible is the starting point.  That includes learning the original intent of what we have, seeing the errors made, and using the mechanisms those damned white slave owners left us to effect change.  Fast? No. Always right?  Not likely.  But hopefully well informed, reasoned and more sane & less bloody than anarchy.

Look at the number of nameless guests who read this forum.  We never know if mindsets are changed.  But I'm betting some are. 

As that prayer says, how about we have the courage to to change the things we can, the serenity to accept the things we can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference.  I know it's origin is some old Christian white guy, but let's try to overlook that, shall we?

"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary."
- Karl Paul Reinhold Niebuhr, The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness (1944)

[Varmit]

Please remember that admonition as you continue to lay so many of America's ills squarely at the feet the whites, present or past.

Well, when you consider the people that have been in power in our nations history I don't think I have forgotten.

Some of my ancestors fled the oppressive rule of Tsarist Russia.  My wife's family the oppressive controls imposed by Nazi Germany on non-Jewish whites in the Netherlands. Please tell us what line we can get into in order to get our reparations and restitution. Ain't gonna happen, and you know it. Get over it.  Get past this 'you owe me a debt cause your granddaddy oppressed (lied too, cheated, enslaved, otherwise dealt dishonestly with) my granddaddy' bullshit. There ain't enough restitution to go around.  We start  where we start and make the best what we have.

I wasn't talking about reparations in other countries and you know it.  So your examples don't hold up.  As for where to start, how about we begin to actually live up to our promises and agreements made to native peoples that are STILL getting shafted. 

So just shredding what we have on a whim like children having a temper tantrum isn't very workable?

Actually it is.  I don't think the founders had a plan in place before declaring their independence did they? 

That is a more reasoned view.  None of us have the perfect answers.  What we have is one of the few systems that is changeable (at many levels, from small town to the national) without having to kill some despot dictator or a few warlords first and then wondering what will fill the vacuum.  No, in our system, being as fully informed as possible is the starting point.  That includes learning the original intent of what we have, seeing the errors made, and using the mechanisms those damned white slave owners left us to effect change.  Fast? No. Always right?  Not likely.  But hopefully well informed, reasoned and more sane & less bloody than anarchy.

A system that is changeable??...If you mean that folks have the option of either A or B and nothing else, then I guess its changeable.  But then again thats kinda like giving a person the choice of dying from drowning or buring do death, either way there isn't much change in the outcome.

As that prayer says, how about we have the courage to to change the things we can, the serenity to accept the things we can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference.  I know it's origin is some old Christian white guy, but let's try to overlook that, shall we?

You may choose to accept those things that you cannot change.  But I cannot, my mama raised a fighter not a quiter.

[Patriot]

So much for anything resembling reason, I suppose.

I'll add one thought... Nothing was said about quitting.  If a thing 'can not' be changed by one person (like the condition or course of mankind), then that thing, by definition, can not be changed. No fight of yours will make it change.  And if you're determined change the unchangeable or else, by golly. then your momma may have raised a brother to Don Quixote of La Mancha.  Best wishes in your quest to tame the giant windmills.  I think I'll just leave you to it and have a steak.

[Janet Harrington]

Here is the Kansas law that states driving is a privilege. You must have a driver's license to operate vehicles on the roadways of Kansas or suffer the consequences if you are caught. Of course, you may chose to not have a driver's license and go ahead and drive, but don't cry when you get arrested and the courts tell you what you will do or won't do.

8-235: Licenses required; city license, when; appeal from denial of license; vehicles registered under temporary permit; penalty; motorized bicycle driver's license. (a) No person, except those expressly exempted, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state unless such person has a valid driver's license. No person shall receive a driver's license unless and until such person surrenders or with the approval of the division, lists to the division all valid licenses in such person's possession issued to such person by any other jurisdiction. All surrendered licenses or the information listed on foreign licenses shall be returned by the division to the issuing department, together with information that the licensee is now licensed in a new jurisdiction. No person shall be permitted to have more than one valid license at any time.
      (b)   Any person licensed under the motor vehicle drivers' license act may exercise the privilege granted upon all streets and highways in this state and shall not be required to obtain any other license to exercise such privilege by any local authority. Nothing herein shall prevent cities from requiring licenses of persons who drive taxicabs or municipally franchised transit systems for hire upon city streets, to protect the public from drivers whose character or habits make them unfit to transport the public. If a license is denied, the applicant may appeal such decision to the district court of the county in which such city is located by filing within 10 days after such denial, a notice of appeal with the clerk of the district court and by filing a copy of such notice with the city clerk of the involved city. The city clerk shall certify a copy of such decision of the city governing body to the clerk of the district court and the matter shall be docketed as any other cause and the applicant shall be granted a trial of such person's character and habits. The matter shall be heard by the court de novo in accordance with the code of civil procedure. The cost of such appeal shall be assessed in such manner as the court may direct.

      (c)   Any person operating in this state a motor vehicle, except a motorcycle, which is registered in this state other than under a temporary thirty-day permit shall be the holder of a driver's license which is classified for the operation of such motor vehicle, and any person operating in this state a motorcycle which is registered in this state shall be the holder of a class M driver's license, except that any person operating in this state a motorcycle which is registered under a temporary thirty-day permit shall be the holder of a driver's license for any class of motor vehicles.

      (d)   No person shall drive any motorized bicycle upon a highway of this state unless: (1) Such person has a valid driver's license which entitles the licensee to drive a motor vehicle in any class or classes; (2) such person is at least 15 years of age and has passed the written and visual examinations required for obtaining a class C driver's license, in which case the division shall issue to such person a class C license which clearly indicates such license is valid only for the operation of motorized bicycles; or (3) such person has had their driving privileges suspended, for a violation other than a violation of K.S.A. 8-1567 or 8-1567a, and amendments thereto, and has made application to the division for the issuance of a class C license for the operation of motorized bicycles, in accordance with paragraph (2), in which case the division shall issue to such person a class C license which clearly indicates such license is valid only for the operation of motorized bicycles.

      (e)   Violation of this section shall constitute a class B misdemeanor.

      History:   L. 1937, ch. 73, § 2; L. 1949, ch. 104, § 2; L. 1959, ch. 49, § 2; L. 1961, ch. 52, § 1; L. 1969, ch. 51, § 1; L. 1975, ch. 36, § 5; L. 1976, ch. 42, § 2; L. 1977, ch. 28, § 3; L. 1987, ch. 45, § 1; L. 1989, ch. 38, § 20; L. 1991, ch. 36, § 5; L. 1993, ch. 154, § 2; L. 2000, ch. 179, § 7; L. 2007, ch. 181, § 1; July 1.

And don't you think that when our fore fathers talked about right to locomotion meant that you have the right to move around to where ever we want to live in these great United States, that the government cannot tell us where we can live. You also have the right to leave this country if you want.

I just now read this thread on doing away with driver's licenses and thought that really way off considering that the US Constitution does not deal with having or not having driver's licenses.  Yell at me if you want, but driving on the roadways of Kansas (and probably anywhere else) is a privilege, not a right. The government imposed driving laws to protect us from those who think it is their right to drive when, where, and however they want.

[greatguns]

Apparently that does not apply where I live, as they start driving when they are about 6 years old and by 12 years of age they are driving in neighboring towns.  And yes Janet, it baffles me everyday.

[Diane Amberg]

The same is true here. We can drive on private property, our own or with permission, without a license and there used to be some provision for farm equipment moving from field to field, but in general it all changes when a driver goes out on public roads and public safety is involved. If a person has a license it shows they are of  legal driving age and at least once has proved they can safely maneuver the vehicle they are getting licensed for. I have what is known here as a "non CDL Class A license" which allows me to drive all fire equipment including our tractor drawn ladder truck, but not a regular over the road commercial tractor trailer. I think most states have driving laws that suit their own situations and some allow drivers younger than others. When I got mine years ago ,I got my learners permit after I was 16 and once I was licensed there were no restrictions. Now the kids can get the permit at 15, but the license is graduated with many rules and restrictions on who can be in the car, how many passengers, and how late at night they can drive ( the Cinderella license) for several years before they are turned loose all together. It was all done in an effort to reduce the number of accidents that young more inexperienced drivers have.