Is $200 Oil Possible?...

[redcliffsw]

One does not have to buy it if he thinks the price is too much.

[frawin]

The Oil Companies DO NOT set the price of oil and haven't for a long time. Opec, supply/demand, the value of currencies are all major factors. The 1973 Embargo ended the oil companies contol of prices and with it went cheap energy.

[srkruzich]

Steve, come on the economy collapse had nothing to do with the price of oil, you have to be aware of that fact. Secondly all of the info and costs you stated for solar are no where near what I spent and I included all my costs in the amoutnt I pay for energy currently. Also, from what I have heard from others there in Elk they pay almosty as much to heat their house as you do on all that you pay during the whole year. As I suggested you should give them your tips so they can lower their costs to what you pay. My guess is that you are a very frugal person.

I'll tell ya, you can believe it was bush's fault, or whoever you want, but yes i do believe that the oilprices collapsed most of the economies of this world.  They were shakey at best before but when it shot up there, it sucked a lot of money out of the economy.  We saw everything start to shut down, increase in prices, and it did not do good things at all.

Let, me try a different tack with you on the issue.  Evertything you say about different types of energy not being viable were said about oil, which is a very recent source of energy for our country, well less than 100 years old. The point is that the best way for us to reduce our energy costs is to diversify and use what works best in our local are. It is different here in the sunny west than it is in the windy midwest.  We are a very wastefull society and as long as we try to put all our eggs in the oil basket and don't develop all the many sources of energy we are in for a whole world of hurt. We cannot continue down our same path. Most of all we have to start using our energy in a much less wasteful manner and free ourselves from foreign oil.

David

Look, i am all for higher mileage vehciles, ect, more efficient systems to heat and cool The problem isn't usage of the oil, and coal deposits, and the problem isn't the wasting of it.  THe problem is you have a finite amount of energy that can be obtained out of oil, coal, solar, wind, ect, based on dollar cost.  When i talk about solar, I am old enough to remember the promises made about it in the 70's when it started.  IT was touted as a major energy producer and lots of folks jumped onto that bandwagon. Only problme is the cost did not come down.  It still hasn't come down in the production of it.  Now I hold a electronic degree and years of experience in fields that use electricity.  I did recently look into what it would take to build a system out of USED components.  instead of buying 4 panels at 280vDC 200 amp output, I looked at used which only put out 80%. So that would require 1 extra panel.  The cost per panel per watt was 1.68 per watt. Thats
56000 watts. You do the math just on the panels.  The fact is that i wouldn't put out 94080 dollars on my house thats only worth 32k and thats with 6 acres.   
I got my watt figure from 280V x 200A=56000  That will power a house without a battery bank.  You need the battery bank just to keep the juice flowing smoothly, as well as for those days without sun.

Technically i could cut it by half and still power a house but it would require the battery bank to fall upon for interruptible flow.  Even if you went 1/4  which you can do if you use energy reduction in appliances, and led lighting, its still going to cost ya 25k.   Now today those that go on it, have to get their usage down below i think 10,000 watts a day. just don't remember that figure.    Or go DC voltage.  Now that is preferred but highly dangerous.  DC will kill you faster than AC thats why they use AC.   

The only viable source of energy at this point i can see and i do keep up with it a lot, is nuclear power.   THat will bring not only cheap electricity but its clean its efficient and you don't have to have that many to produce the energy needs for the nation.     WE can take coal and make fuel for our vehicles too using the energy produced from nuclear and we have hundreds of years of coal deposits.   THe key to all of it isn't conserving, it is cracking the energy output barrier. Once that is done you get efficiency.

For example, the reason why diesel gets 40 mpg in some cases 50 mpg, is that diesel is compressed at 13-15:1 compression ratio. Gasoline is compressed at 9.5:1 compression.  We get crap gas these days because they went to a 9.5:1 compression ratio back in the 70's.   Raise the compression, refine the gas to a better product, you can get more power out of the fuel used.  Also if you run 11:1 compression in a cylendar, as well as use seals and parts that won't deteriorate or go back to carburators, you can run alchohol straight up.  Look at the old flat head engines. They used to run straight alchohol.  But then it cost more to produce alchohol than it does gasoline.  Shoot the way it is with alchohol, i would just produce it, sell it to folks to drink at 30.00 a gallon and just buy gas.  Makes no sense.  It costs, around 10or more a gallon to produce alcohol these days.   You won't hear that from the ethenol plants out there, they don't want to lose that free money they get.

Anyway, one of these days they will unlock the power out of the resources we have.  That will carry us.  Solar is still a pipe dream.  I doubt it will ever be used outside of electric companies using it to put on the grid.   Some home owners will go that route but it makes no sense when you can't get the cost savings out of it in a lifetime.

[srkruzich]

Okay, lets say that oil is the only way to go.  If that is the case then the big oil companies should be able to charge whatever price they want.  Afterall, thats how the free market system works isn't it?  A company should be able to charge whatever it wants for its products.  So all the bitching and moaning can come to a stop.

Thats the problem right now. Oil is not on the free market.   It is controlled by government.  Get the government out of drilling and you'll see it come down. Get the governments out of setting the price you will see it get reasonable.

[srkruzich]

The Oil Companies DO NOT set the price of oil and haven't for a long time. Opec, supply/demand, the value of currencies are all major factors. The 1973 Embargo ended the oil companies contol of prices and with it went cheap energy.

Your absolutely right.  Remember it well.  Government took control and as per usual foobard the whole thing.

[mtcookson]

Another promising option I've been keeping my eye on is liquid propane injection. Yeah, its just a byproduct of oil and natural gas but I really like the looks of it and it could be an excellent alternative to gasoline for efficiency.

By injecting it as a liquid, instead of a vapor, efficiency goes way up. Current tests have shown efficiency equal to and even greater than current gasoline. By injecting it as a liquid it cools off the intake charge a lot helping increase power and efficiency. On top of that, it has a much higher octane than standard gasoline which allows you to run higher compression ratios further increasing efficiency.

Propane is also quite clean compared to gas. You know how your oil turns black after a while? Burning the gasoline is main cause of that. If you took the same engine and burned propane instead the oil wouldn't turn black and would last longer.

Propane can also be stored as a liquid which makes it much more viable for vehicles than the alternative natural gas. Natural gas also wouldn't be near as efficient as liquid propane injection.

As far as safety goes, propane isn't as flammable as gasoline however it pools when it leaks as it is heavier than air. Natural gas is lighter than air so is quite a bit safer.

Due to how much of it we have though, natural gas would be a decent alternative to gasoline. Only problem is efficiency does go down as well as range as it is a pain to store as a liquid. Octane is even higher than propane so efficiency could be made up slightly with a compression increase but I doubt still you'd be able to match current gasoline efficiency. Still, if you're worried about oil and want something a little more green, natural gas would be a good alternative along with propane.

[srkruzich]

Yeah MT they use it now in semis.  been using it for quite a while, it is mostly used when the engine goes into a heavy load.
Nat gas is a way but harder to find fillup stations.   it takes a mod kit to  install on your current engine.  

you lose 10 -15% in power from it.  One problem is getting the LPN, most of the LPN fillups are commercial only.   I haven't seen the stats on CNG.  i think its less efficient than propane.  And Propane is still a byproduct of oil so its going to be pricey.  CNG is definately cheaper by about 1.25 a gallon.   Again fill stations are commerical on that one too.  I think they make fill stations that you can hook up at home, not sure on price.

In all reality you could run on methane if you could figure a way to liquify it and store it.  Hook up to your septic tank and produce methane, or around here build a manure tank to compost out manure and collect the methane.  

You would have to build a compressor system that won't throw a spark and compress it til it liquifies.  Heck, i even have plans to build a gassifer system to hook up.  Just get a wood chipper and load the bed with your fuel.  

One other thing i am trying to find all the parts to build right now is the parts to burn used motor oil in my shop.  Oil burner will heat up fast and hot and dispose of used oil very easily.  Plenty of used oil available cheap or for free.
I suppose if i could make it large enough i could heat the house with it too.

[mtcookson]

Interesting! I knew they were doing a sort of propane assist but didn't know they were venturing into liquid injection yet. I know the CleanFuel USA has been doing some LPI setups for commercial vehicles but haven't seen any markets much bigger than that yet.

The thing that is really holding propane back from being a good automotive fuel is that the fuel itself isn't very "clean" right now. A lot of injection systems have been plagued with sludge buildup in the fuel system without some additives to try keeping it clean. They just don't really have a good standard for automotive propane that I've seen yet.

[srkruzich]

Interesting! I knew they were doing a sort of propane assist but didn't know they were venturing into liquid injection yet. I know the CleanFuel USA has been doing some LPI setups for commercial vehicles but haven't seen any markets much bigger than that yet.

The thing that is really holding propane back from being a good automotive fuel is that the fuel itself isn't very "clean" right now. A lot of injection systems have been plagued with sludge buildup in the fuel system without some additives to try keeping it clean. They just don't really have a good standard for automotive propane that I've seen yet.

Sorry i'm wrong on that, they have liquid port injection systems and they can direct inject LNG into the cylinder.  BUt LPN not yet. Cummins sells a engine that Direct injects LNG into the cylinder And a couple foreign companys do also.

i think LNG is the dirty fuel and propane is clean or so it was explained to me by a Gas man.   I know you have to use a .063 on LPN and .098 for NG.

[frawin]

I think CNG is the best and most plentiful alternative for the near term. In West Texas there were CNG filling facilities readily available. Many of the big truck stops are adding CNg facilities. Tulsa OKlahoma is replacing all of their city buses with CNG powered buses. The US has far more Natural gas reserves that they have oil. CNG is clean burning not as volatile and is plentiful. Higher gasoine prices will bring changes. We need to do away with the big gas guzzlers. Hummers that get 6-7 miles to the gallon don't make sense. GM is selling more big gas guzzling pickups than ever. The rest of the world is adding vehicles at an all time high rate and we will be facing an energy shortage that is going to have serious reprecussions. I think the possibility of a vehicle that is battery powered and has a charging system that will recharge itself while running has great possibilities.