Is $200 Oil Possible?...

[Varmit]

We don't need to give up our gas guzzlers.  Just find a more efficent fuel to burn or whatever.  HHO's are pretty simple to make.  Hell, youtube has dozens of videos showing how.

I know boycotts don't work, they won't because people are unwilling to do what it takes to find an alternative.  Maybe wind, solar, electric aren't the best ideas.  Fine.  Lets look for others.  Those are not the only alternatives and if we limit ourselves to just what we already know we will never advance as a people.

[sodbuster]

Not only is $200 oil possible it is going to be here sooner rather than later. Did you all forget it was near $160 in the recent past? The problem is that it will have to go much higher than that before people take notice. I don't know what the price point of gas at the pump is to make people actually do something about it. What I do know is it is not $6.00 per gallon. Here in car centric California we hit that back when it was $160. The reaction, a lot of grumbling and a slight decline in everyone buying a big SUV.

Many of the keys to solving the energy crisis will be to stop putting all our eggs in one basket as Varmit alluded to in his post. The more options we have the better off we will be. All of the energy sources should be pursued. They all have good and bad points that must be solved, but they all work. One of the comments on here was you can't depend on the sun. Here in California I depend on it everyday for much of my energy needs more so here in the winter when I am sitting here in 70 degree weather and Kansas and others are running their heaters. Not to mention the fact that with my solar panels I pay less than $20 per month in winter for all my energy needs. Will my my system work as well for EK? No but you all have more wind than sun. My point is that we need to diversify our energy sources. I have a lot more to say on this but I have a short attention span for typing.

Let me leave you with this; the solution our energy crisis doesn't cost us any money. The solution is a change in our attitude. All we have to do is diversify our sources of energy and more importantly stop wasting energy. Don't believe me? Who among you pays less than $20 in energy cost per month to run your home. If you do give me your secrets.

David

[srkruzich]

Not only is $200 oil possible it is going to be here sooner rather than later. Did you all forget it was near $160 in the recent past? The problem is that it will have to go much higher than that before people take notice. I don't know what the price point of gas at the pump is to make people actually do something about it. What I do know is it is not $6.00 per gallon. Here in car centric California we hit that back when it was $160. The reaction, a lot of grumbling and a slight decline in everyone buying a big SUV.

first of all if they go to 150 or even 200, they will collapse the economy of the world and then who will buy their oil.  No one  So they aren't going to do it. Its foolhardy to try and do that and one of the worst business decisions ever.  What they will do is hover around where we are at for a few years. It will probably come down some.  The economies of the world cannot survive if they did this.  It already collapsed it once.   Secondly what its going to take is someone to get brass ones up in office to tell them they will not allow OPEC to do this anymore.  Like Donald trump said theres a group of 12 men up there and they are sitting around a table saying ok were charging this much today blah blah blah.
He said basically getting someone in office thats oging to tell them enough, tap into our reserves and start pumping.  That will collapse OPEC.

The more options we have the better off we will be. All of the energy sources should be pursued. They all have good and bad points that must be solved, but they all work. One of the comments on here was you can't depend on the sun. Here in California I depend on it everyday for much of my energy needs more so here in the winter when I am sitting here in 70 degree weather and Kansas and others are running their heaters.

Thats fine for you but you cannot count on 365 days of sunshine unless you live in states like colorado. I think theirs is 345 days of sunshine.  Secondly solar has been around since the 70's and has been touted as the fuel of the future and even back then they said prices will come down.  Poppycock.  THe prices of solar are still out of reach of MOST americans.  The panels themselves USED PRICE are around 2.00 a watt. THen you have to add the converters, the voltage regulator and the battery banks at a nice little price of  50 bucks a volt.  It places these systems far out of reach of most people secondly the cost return is not even close.  You have to go 25 years to get your money back in savings.
I just did a cost analysis on it the other day and there is no way I would even live long enough to see a return on the money much less be able to afford it.  Its one of those technologies that will be destined for the rich.
Last of all, to utilize solar, you would have to change all of your electric devices. OR use a convertor which means you have to buy more panels just to convert the electricity into AC.  240 v RMS is not equal to 240 V DC. So you would have to go 280V DC to get 240 V RMS

Let me leave you with this; the solution our energy crisis doesn't cost us any money. The solution is a change in our attitude. All we have to do is diversify our sources of energy and more importantly stop wasting energy. Don't believe me? Who among you pays less than $20 in energy cost per month to run your home. If you do give me your secrets.

I pay only around 57.00 per month and that includes the 20.00 mandetory administration fees.

[mtcookson]

If you want more fuel economy diesel is the way to go currently. Recently bought my wife a 2000 VW Beetle with a 1.9 liter turbo diesel. Can get up to 50 mpg or so on the highway and average 45 mpg in mixed driving where our crossover would only pull off 18 to 20. 600+ miles to a tank is absolutely awesome. Can drive from here back to Indiana (around 600 miles, maybe slightly more) without having to fill up. You can do even better too with different models as the Beetle has horrible aerodynamics. A VW Golf would likely be your best bet.

Anyway... I believe with current technology our only viable alternative is more nuclear power plants and hydrogen electric electric vehicles. On the off peak hours the nuke plants can generate hydrogen for the cars. It can be abundant, extremely cheap, and range on the current HE vehicles is pretty decent at around 250 to 300 miles if memory serves.

Complete electric won't be viable for most people until battery technology improves a lot. Nuclear batteries are probably going to be the only way to go, however, some company has supposedly created some sort of super capacitor that has the capacity of a battery but a very quick charge capability like a capacitor. They claimed it would only take about 5 minutes to get a full charge. If that thing pans out that will make EV's very viable. That mixed with nuclear power plants will give us the clean energy everyone's been foaming at the mouth for.

On the nuclear batteries, I don't believe fusion will be required. If nuclear energy hadn't been so discouraged I bet we would already have EV's with nuclear batteries. Thank the government for that one.

As for internal combustion engines currently, the design has been the same for so long because they work and work well. The only major redesign to hit mass production was the Wankel rotary produced by Mazda and now the newer Renesis rotary (same basic design as the Wankel but most notably with different port designs allowing better power and efficiency). They are very cool little engines but aren't really more fuel efficient than the regular engines. Power wise they are able to put out more for the displacement but fuel efficiency wise can be horrible.

I've been keeping my eye on a new engine design that looks very promising. Its been slow to develop but if they are able to produce it and it works it will blow all current ICE's efficient out of the water. Hopefully it works out well and they are able to produce it. I'll definitely post more if it doesn't end up being a joke.

[sodbuster]

first of all if they go to 150 or even 200, they will collapse the economy of the world and then who will buy their oil.  No one  So they aren't going to do it. Its foolhardy to try and do that and one of the worst business decisions ever.  What they will do is hover around where we are at for a few years. It will probably come down some.  The economies of the world cannot survive if they did this.  It already collapsed it once.   Secondly what its going to take is someone to get brass ones up in office to tell them they will not allow OPEC to do this anymore.  Like Donald trump said theres a group of 12 men up there and they are sitting around a table saying ok were charging this much today blah blah blah.
He said basically getting someone in office thats oging to tell them enough, tap into our reserves and start pumping.  That will collapse OPEC.

Thats fine for you but you cannot count on 365 days of sunshine unless you live in states like colorado. I think theirs is 345 days of sunshine.  Secondly solar has been around since the 70's and has been touted as the fuel of the future and even back then they said prices will come down.  Poppycock.  THe prices of solar are still out of reach of MOST americans.  The panels themselves USED PRICE are around 2.00 a watt. THen you have to add the converters, the voltage regulator and the battery banks at a nice little price of  50 bucks a volt.  It places these systems far out of reach of most people secondly the cost return is not even close.  You have to go 25 years to get your money back in savings.
I just did a cost analysis on it the other day and there is no way I would even live long enough to see a return on the money much less be able to afford it.  Its one of those technologies that will be destined for the rich.
Last of all, to utilize solar, you would have to change all of your electric devices. OR use a convertor which means you have to buy more panels just to convert the electricity into AC.  240 v RMS is not equal to 240 V DC. So you would have to go 280V DC to get 240 V RMS

I pay only around 57.00 per month and that includes the 20.00 mandetory administration fees.

First of all the price of oil has already been at over 150, it did not collapse the economy.

Secondly, I exist only on solar and pay almost 500 dollars per year less than you do. I could do better.

Thirdly, you missed the whole point on what I said. The key is to conserve energy and use all the of the options mentioned in this thread. You are looking for the one energy that fits all people. That has been oil. It is on it way out. We can no longer stay with your way of thinking. Some of us look forward others like you want to stay with oil.

David

[Roma Jean Turner]

When I get moved to Moline, I want to spend some time looking into some of these options for the house.  Does anyone down there have a small wind mill?  It seems to me that somewhere on the web I saw something about a small wind unit that could be used in a back yard.  Also, I have seen this portable solar panel advertised on TV.  Does anyone have one of those?

[srkruzich]

First of all the price of oil has already been at over 150, it did not collapse the economy.

What the heck do you think just happened in the last two - three years. 
when it went to 150 a barrel it definatly collapsed economies! Thats why it came back down to 50 a barrel.

Secondly, I exist only on solar and pay almost 500 dollars per year less than you do. I could do better.

As i said in my post, so what if you pay 500 less.  That is NOT the true cost!  IF you can't justify the cost then its not going to happen.  500 a year won't pay for a solar electric system in 30 years.  Not a viable solution for the average person.  Like i said it will only be available to the wealthy.
or folks that have money to burn.  I for one don't care if its clean energy, it has to be cheap too.  How much did it cost fo the solar setup.  Unless you count that in you cannot say you pay less.  JUST so that folks know, Solar panels have a 20 year lifespan. So your replacing them every 20 years.  You will most likely have to upgrade your converter as well as controllers.  So your effectively replacing it every 20 years.  Divide a new system by 20 years, add the 20 dollars a month to that price and that is your cost.

Thirdly, you missed the whole point on what I said. The key is to conserve energy and use all the of the options mentioned in this thread. You are looking for the one energy that fits all people. That has been oil. It is on it way out. We can no longer stay with your way of thinking. Some of us look forward others like you want to stay with oil.

David

No what I am looking for is the cheapest and most accessible product.  It won't be any of these alternative sources as it will never come down in price enough for the average joe to be able to afford it.  Like i pointed out earlier, none of those alternate sources are green energy. They are all reliant on oil.  IF you don't have oil, you cannot produce the solar panels or the wind turbines, as well as the transmission components.

[srkruzich]

When I get moved to Moline, I want to spend some time looking into some of these options for the house.  Does anyone down there have a small wind mill?  It seems to me that somewhere on the web I saw something about a small wind unit that could be used in a back yard.  Also, I have seen this portable solar panel advertised on TV.  Does anyone have one of those?

I can get a 45 watt panel for 199 dollars at harbor freight right now and all that panel will do is maybe charge a battery and run a 12 v RV system a bit.   you can link them together in serial and parallel and come up with a 240V dc system with a 200 amp service if you do some battery banking.  You would have to have at least a 400v DC panel system at over 3.00 a watt price, then the battery bank will eat your lunch. 
Uhm to get a 240VAC /200Amp service which is what your house runs on, you would need a bank of 2v batteries at about 80 -150 a battery. You would need 140 of these strung up in series, each with  a 1000 amps.  That would run through a converter like they use in RV's, and transform it into 240V AC.  You lose a lot of voltage in the conversion due to the design of AC.

I saw a wind turbine that was being experimental for home use, but they have their problems.  One of which is prop failure.  If that happens, you got a 16' blade of metal flying through the air where it lands depends on velocity and direction.  IF it does fail it will cause major damage and the ones i have looked at have had significant problems with failures.   Heck even the ones over at the wind farms fail like that  I've seen one come apart and it ain't a pretty sight!

The most effective electric Generation is Hydro.  IF you happen to have a piece of land with a nice ever flow creek running on it, and a hill that will drop 50 feet over a 200' span, you can put in a ramjet and scoop system to scoop the water and force it into smaller pipes as you go to the ramjet, and when it hits it is a turbine that spins from the water and it will in turn turn a generator to produce your power.  Those are reliable.
But then again you have to have the water source as well as the terrain to do it.

There was also a potential wind unit but after all the hype for years about it, it turned out to be one of the most elaborate scams out there.  They got shut down a couple years back.  Most of the ones i have seen are frauds .

Saw where Italians are claiming cold fusion but from what i see, its nothing but a fraud. They are going to have to do some real explanation before anyone is going to believe it. 

[sodbuster]

What the heck do you think just happened in the last two - three years. 
when it went to 150 a barrel it definatly collapsed economies! Thats why it came back down to 50 a barrel.
As i said in my post, so what if you pay 500 less.  That is NOT the true cost!  IF you can't justify the cost then its not going to happen.  500 a year won't pay for a solar electric system in 30 years.  Not a viable solution for the average person.  Like i said it will only be available to the wealthy.
or folks that have money to burn.  I for one don't care if its clean energy, it has to be cheap too.  How much did it cost fo the solar setup.  Unless you count that in you cannot say you pay less.  JUST so that folks know, Solar panels have a 20 year lifespan. So your replacing them every 20 years.  You will most likely have to upgrade your converter as well as controllers.  So your effectively replacing it every 20 years.  Divide a new system by 20 years, add the 20 dollars a month to that price and that is your cost.

No what I am looking for is the cheapest and most accessible product.  It won't be any of these alternative sources as it will never come down in price enough for the average joe to be able to afford it.  Like i pointed out earlier, none of those alternate sources are green energy. They are all reliant on oil.  IF you don't have oil, you cannot produce the solar panels or the wind turbines, as well as the transmission components.

Steve, come on the economy collapse had nothing to do with the price of oil, you have to be aware of that fact. Secondly all of the info and costs you stated for solar are no where near what I spent and I included all my costs in the amoutnt I pay for energy currently. Also, from what I have heard from others there in Elk they pay almosty as much to heat their house as you do on all that you pay during the whole year. As I suggested you should give them your tips so they can lower their costs to what you pay. My guess is that you are a very frugal person.

Let, me try a different tack with you on the issue.  Evertything you say about different types of energy not being viable were said about oil, which is a very recent source of energy for our country, well less than 100 years old. The point is that the best way for us to reduce our energy costs is to diversify and use what works best in our local are. It is different here in the sunny west than it is in the windy midwest.  We are a very wastefull society and as long as we try to put all our eggs in the oil basket and don't develop all the many sources of energy we are in for a whole world of hurt. We cannot continue down our same path. Most of all we have to start using our energy in a much less wasteful manner and free ourselves from foreign oil.

David

[Varmit]

Okay, lets say that oil is the only way to go.  If that is the case then the big oil companies should be able to charge whatever price they want.  Afterall, thats how the free market system works isn't it?  A company should be able to charge whatever it wants for its products.  So all the bitching and moaning can come to a stop.