By The Sea......

[Patriot]

Good grief.  And again, for the less prepared....

Revelation Chapter 12 should not be perverted into a past event effecting mankind in history.  It refers to end times events.  One simply can not pick & choose Bible text out of context and make it fit a personal narrative.  Look at the whole context....

Rev 12:1  ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

For a good commentary, go to: http://www.gotquestions.org/Revelation-chapter-12.html

Suffice to say Revelation 12 has nothing to do with the devil being sent by God in some past time to bring death & such to mankind.

On the subject of the adulteration & misuse of Bible scripture to fit a personal agenda, maybe it's time to consider the author of such methods.  Go look at Matthew Chapter 4 verses 1-11 where Satan uses the very words of God to tempt Christ.  Perhaps the reader should draw their own conclusions about the out of context use of Biblical Scripture.

[Varmit]

Ok...so Satan was on Earth to tempt Christ even though he hadn't been cast out of heaven yet.  And since Satan hasn't been cast out yet he has no influence on earth, but he does, because all sin is a product of humans following satans influence even though hes not here yet but he is.  Because this war hasn't happend yet so satan is still in heaven even though he is here....


Good grief, no wonder there are so many different types of christian churches, cant' even get their story straight. 

[Patriot]

As Regan said, "There you go again."

Varmit, you seem to assume that the differences between various denominations are because of the kind of convoluted interpretations of Biblical doctrine that you try to present here.  Oh that it were that simple.  Most of Christiandom are unified on matters of critical doctrine (The Godhead, Divinity of Jesus, Fall of man, Life/Death & Resurrection of Christ, Redemption & Salvation by grace through faith, etc.).  Most carefully study scripture and take it as a whole and rather than an assembly of isolated disconnected statements.  By doing so, they are able to agree on vast matters of significance.  Their disagreements are generally accepted to be in areas that most likely won't affect the ends of personal salvation.

Where those kinds of disagreement may exist, it is very likely that some improper assessment of doctrine or interpretation has taken place.  In those cases, it is also likely that only one or the other is correct.  It is truth that if someone standing on earth releases a rock from their hand, it will fall to the ground at the rate of 32 feet/second squared.  Given equal circumstances, all other statement about what happens to the rock are false.  There is only one truth.  There was a time, however that the truth about the rate of fall was generally unknown.  Only diligent study revealed the fact.  And before the fact was known & accepted, denying the actual rate would have been no less wrong.  Luther saw much folly in some Catholic interpretation of doctrine.  The reformation, if nothing else, led to more in depth study and clarification of doctrine. 

Unlike some folks, diligent students of Biblical teachings try not to make doctrines fit their personal idea of what God should be.  Rather they come to accept scripture as God breathed and determine to let scripture define who & what God is.  Sucks to have to submit to some authority outside oneself, but c'est la vie.  Are the students always correct in their findings, no.  Do they just toss the entire pursuit of understanding and trot off on some other belief?  Some do. Some don't.  I believe that diligence & persistence eventually pay off for Christians who keep studying.  An outcome that is also promised in the Bible.  Sometimes it's the quality of the student and not the quality of the lesson or text.

So you just keep on scripture twistin' and I'll continue to grow in seeing that, for those who diligently study & apply Biblical principals in their lives, there really aren't any clear conflicts in scripture and the God of the Bible is and does exactly as the entirety of scripture says.

I've said, more than once, that I'm more than willing to accept you and let you have your beliefs.  Are you as willing to let those here who differ with you have theirs?  Or do you wish to continue to debate?  You've said at least twice now you were done with this thread.  Ready, presumably to be gone from it.  Are you a man of your word as you say you expect Christians to be?

[Varmit]

Make no mistake I'm done debating this topic.  But Srkurich broke down what I had posted and I wanted to answer that.  Ya'll can spout off all you want about '...its the student not the text' whatever.  Believe what you want, thats fine by me.  But if you insult my character I'm coming back at you (as I would expect anyone to do).  I did not comment on this thread to debate the validity of christian belife rather their constant pursuit of others that don't share the same belief.

[srkruzich]

Ok...so Satan was on Earth to tempt Christ even though he hadn't been cast out of heaven yet.  And since Satan hasn't been cast out yet he has no influence on earth, but he does, because all sin is a product of humans following satans influence even though hes not here yet but he is.  Because this war hasn't happend yet so satan is still in heaven even though he is here....


Good grief, no wonder there are so many different types of christian churches, cant' even get their story straight. 

Satan had the ability to go to earth as well as he has complete access to heaven.  He was a cheribum i believe.   Guarded the throne of God.  

[kshillbillys]

I'm not for sure on this because I am not a practicing Christian. I believe in God and Heaven and Hell and the Lord Jesus Christ but if I remember right as a child, that in the very first book of Genesis, wasn't it Satan as a serpent tempting Eve to eat from forbidden fruit of knowledge?  Which would mean that he was here in the very beginning and already cast out from Heaven? And even though Jesus, the son of God here on Earth in human form, flesh and blood, I believe he could have the same temptations as any human. And another thing Varmit, did I miss something? I've not been watching Fox News lately, or CNN or MSNBC or Headline News or Nightline, and I may have missed the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, but has the book of Revelations already happened? I was not informed. It may be in the beginning stages if we look hard enough for the signs. But to read what you have written, it sounds as though it has already happened. If you'd like to discuss this more, give me a call. My fingers are sore from typing but I still reserve one for you.---Robert

[thatsMRSc2u]

  Varmit.........theres too much noise here for what you are tryin to do for yourself. Take it from somebody who has been there done that. Not here but other places.........the best advice anybody can give a person who is questioning is get yourself a Bible.......and any other Books of faith you can think of...be it Buddhist.....Jewish....Native......even Pagan......study them all........talk to intelligent people who have no agenda, that you can trust.....go out in Nature and LISTEN.......go into yourself and LISTEN......most things that are true you already know..you were born knowing them.....you just have to be still enough to remember. I dont know why I'm doin this I guess its cause I HAVE been there done that and mostly on my own with a few friends I made on the journey.....If you listen the Creator WILL lead you where you need to go.

[Varmit]

I hear you Pam, I just got caught up in the B.S. 

Robert, I'd tell you what to do with that "reserved" finger, but it probably already busy.