By The Sea......

[Patriot]

There was a time in this country when most Americans were Bible-believing folks,
but that's not the way it is these days.

We were warned of that a long time ago, as well.  For as dismissed as the Bible is, it's Amazing how accurately the Bible predicted such things.

2Ti 4:3     For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

[Varmit]

First of all suffering, sickness and death and all the ills and evils of the world are not of God. He doesn't cause them.  They are a result of sin entering the world through Adam.

Wrong.  According to the Bible all things work together for the glory of God.  Also, acording to the Bible God created this world and everything in it, including suffering, sickness, and death.  God created sin by saying that "this is a sin" or " that is a sin".  Wasn't it God that cast Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels out of Heaven and onto this world?  He could've just sent them straight to hell but He didn't.  He could've kept this world a paradise and His greatness acknowledged without the suffering, but He didn't.  

Secondly, God allows all of this to happen to teach.  You cannot know happiness unless you experience sadness.  Its just impossible to understand without the opposite.   Everything has a opposite.   So when God allows lets say someone to lose all that they have through illness, then he has them at a point in life where they will listen to him.  Then he can show them a better way.   

Again wrong.  A person doesn't have to expirence sadness to know happiness.  Just as a child doesn't have to expirence hate to know love.  The God of the Bible is supposed to be a loving, kind, and Just God.  He is supposed to be a Father.  What kind of Father would allow His child to fall and break his leg before telling him "Don't climb out on that weak limb, it will break and you'll fall."?  Or allow His child to suffer needlessly just so He can come to the rescue and be looked at as the great hero?

 

3. And again, you fail to provide complete disclosure to your citations.  What is it with people who must find a single verse in the Bible, isolate it, and try to use it as a proof for their own unbelief.  I'll let you try to see where you missed the lesson in the very citation you chose.  Hint:  Read for context and meaning.  Don't isolate single verses.  

I didn't isolate a single verse.  In fact that verse has everything to do with what I said earlier.  I.E. Christ said that even the smallest amount of faith can move mountains, and thru the grace that comes with that faith nothing is impossible.  What is about people who say the Bible is the very Word of God, yet deny Him the power to do what He says He will do in that very book.

Yes, seriously.  Everything you've posted in the last couple of days is in defense of your judgment that 1) the Bible is unreliable, 2) Christians never follow their stated beliefs, 3) Your way is the better way.  Give me a break, you make judgments every step of the way.  Just as I've made judgments that 1) you're knowledge of the Bible, Christianity & its' history are limited, narrow & based on selective Bible reading & a lot of questionable secular information, 2)  that you choose and try to elevate the attributes of an extra-Biblical god of your own making, 3) that your concept of absolute sovereignty is weak in that it denies the true power of an absolute sovereign, 4) and as a result you similar in many ways to the case regarding Mormonism that started this thread, i.e. among those whose beliefs are antithetical to Biblical Christianity and whose end is to seek a path to become a self contained god in some way.  And all that is fine by me.  You are right in one thing, God does allow free choice.  Many paths are set before us in this life and we must each evaluate and choose our own.  I've chosen mine, you've chosen yours.  Whatever the end of your path may be, have a good journey.

1.  It is.
2.  They never do.  
3.  Better in only that it is truer.

1.  I never really got into the History of Christanity.  I could, but I don't think this is the thread for it.  That would be better placed in a Horror story type of thread.
2.  I'm not making any god up.  I know that the Creator exists.  The diversity of life on this planet, hell, the universe is not a product of chance.
3.  Again, all I'm doing is holding the God of the Bible to His word.  If He says that He'll do something I expect Him to do it.
4.  Nope. All I'm doing is saying that I'm sick and tired of "christians" saying that they have a monopoly on Gods mind, will, and heart.  Espcially when they can't even agree among themselves what He is saying in a book they all claim to have ultimate understanding over.

Same to you.

Red,  when was that time?  Was it before or after the genocidal war against the indians?  Or perhaps it was during the time that whole races were either enslaved or extorted for labor?  Or was it when entire cultures were treated as inferior and not afforded the same privledges that the bible believing majority held to be God given and inalienable?  Or was it when the bible believing majority held entire cultures responsible for the atrocities commited by just a few?

Pam,
Exactly.  And as for "True believers" I know...I used to be one.

[Varmit]

We were warned of that a long time ago, as well.  For as dismissed as the Bible is, it's Amazing how accurately the Bible predicted such things.

2Ti 4:3     For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Well, that certainly explains the growing "church" movement.

[Patriot]

And someone mentioned 'browbeating?'  If defending one's belief is browbeating, then I would suggest a clear review of the last couple of posts.  Good grief, the hypocrisy.   Perhaps the 'I'm ok with your choices' slipped by.  Let's try again, I think it's folly, but I'm ok with letting those who reject the Bible believe what ever they choose.

[Varmit]

Whatever dude, my last post was just a bit humor.

Oh, and before you talk about other people being hyprocriets, or judgemental you might want to take a look at Reply #37 on Page 4 of this thread.

That being said, I'm done with this. Have a good one.

[Patriot]

Whatever dude, my last post was just a bit humor.

Oh, and before you talk about other people being hyprocriets, or judgemental you might want to take a look at Reply #37 on Page 4 of this thread.

That being said, I'm done with this. Have a good one.

I'm a tad worn with it as well. There are, however, a lot of people reading this thread, for better or worse.  I suspect a lot of questions may have arisen in some folks minds.  In particular, the issue of judgmentalism seems to recur.  To the 'non-combatants' here, I say judging is expected.  Judging rightly is commanded.  Don't hang up yet.  What follows is not for my defense, but for your liberty.

From a blog at JackHammer.wordpress.com comes a good review:

...Most of Scripture requires application and to make the right application certain truths must exist in the real world.  To abstain from corrupt communication, you've got to judge what bad words are with no help in the Bible.  Regarding dress, Paul ordered the believing women of Corinth to wear their head coverings (1 Cor 11:3-16) without any previous verse of Scripture to authorize that specific practice.  If women didn't wear the head coverings, couldn't they just warn fellow church members not to participate in the respectable sin of judgmentalism?...

...Here's what has happened.  Rationalism in the 19th century placed truth under human reasoning.  In the 20th century, every person's opinion stands as his own authority.  The only permissible dogma is tolerance.  That philosophy now is accepted by many if not most churches...

...To be effective, Scripture must be applied.  To apply God's Word, Christians must judge.  They make decisions based on biblical principles.  The most prominent present attack on the Bible in evangelicalism and fundamentalism is against its application.   The attack says, "Don't judge."  It means, "You can't know how the Bible applies."  God's Word then loses its authority in many practices of churches and their members.


Do I make judgments?  Absolutely.  And I make no apology for it. 
You gasp and agree that I'm judgmental because you know that Jesus said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."  That single statement, taken out of context has become a commandment in many folks mind.  How about we read the entire text:

Mat 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

What is it that Christ says regarding making judgments?  Now that you can see all the text, I'll let you be the judge.

[srkruzich]

Wrong.  According to the Bible all things work together for the glory of God.

Ok, I never said God cannot use everything, but he didn't create sin.  Sin entered the world through Adam, not God.


 

Also, acording to the Bible God created this world and everything in it, including suffering, sickness, and death.

Show me where he created it.  Proof please.    These are the consequences of sin. Of which Entered the world through Adam.

God created sin by saying that "this is a sin" or " that is a sin".  

Now how did he create sin.  What was the first sin?  DID he say that eating of the tree was a sin, NOT AT ALL.  HE SAID
   But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
He never defined a sin. What was the original sin? Was it eating of the tree??  Was it hiding from God, or was it choosing to disobey God. What was the source of th disobedience?  Wasn't it PRIDE?  Remember in the discussion between Adam and eve:  And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Now that is pride.  Thats the sin.  God didn't create it, it was Adams choice to obey or disobey.

Wasn't it God that cast Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels out of Heaven and onto this world?  He could've just sent them straight to hell but He didn't.  He could've kept this world a paradise and His greatness acknowledged without the suffering, but He didn't.  

Nowhere in the bible will you find that God cast lucifer and a 1/3 of his angels out of heaven. It doesn't exist.  That fable came from Milton, paridise lost. 

Again wrong.  A person doesn't have to expirence sadness to know happiness.

How do you know?  You really cannot prove that statement unless you take a child and never ever let them experience sadness, or even happiness. 

Just as a child doesn't have to expirence hate to know love.

I have seen children and worked with children that never knew love until they were rescued from their hate filled life.  I have seen the eyes and some of them are empty inside, their eyes are lifeless, no hope no love no desire for anything but an end to it.  And in that state, i have seen them act like a frightened animal when love has  been shown to them cause it is so foreign to them that they just think its more hate.

The God of the Bible is supposed to be a loving, kind, and Just God.

He is also a fierce and at times a righteously angry God.   Your putting him in a box. 

He is supposed to be a Father.  What kind of Father would allow His child to fall and break his leg before telling him "Don't climb out on that weak limb, it will break and you'll fall."?

I think he has warned everyone.  What is it you don't think he warned someone about.

Or allow His child to suffer needlessly just so He can come to the rescue and be looked at as the great hero?

I'll tell ya what, As a father i have warned my kids, and they did it anyway and got hurt.  Physically, emotionally and life.
I can help fix a lot of things but they still have to face the consequences of their actions.  God is no different. We go against his will, then we are facing our own cosequences.  Now he does rescue us, but still he doesn't completely erase the consequences.


 

I didn't isolate a single verse.  In fact that verse has everything to do with what I said earlier.  I.E. Christ said that even the smallest amount of faith can move mountains, and thru the grace that comes with that faith nothing is impossible.

HE was speaking to the disciples when he said this, because they could not understand why they coul dnot cast out the demon in the child.  HE just told them why.  Now its important to know that they ahve spent many years with him, working with him side by side and seeing what he did. He told them they had the power to do the same.  They just could not bring themselves to believe they could.  This is a human limitation.  One of the problems is that the faith was not quite understood.  It was later on when the HS descended upon the disciples that they understood the message he gave. They were then able to go out and heal in his name.

What is about people who say the Bible is the very Word of God, yet deny Him the power to do what He says He will do in that very book.

LOL well. Thats human condition.

Again, all I'm doing is holding the God of the Bible to His word.  If He says that He'll do something I expect Him to do it.

What do you want him to do?  He does things for me all the time.

[Varmit]

Either God created everything or he didn't, you can't have it both ways.  God created the serpent,  that fooled the woman, that ate from the tree, that grew in the garden that God made.  There would have been no sin if the condition of not eating thereof wasn't put into place. 

Again, God created everything.  Including the viruses that causes sickness, or the birth defects, or the conditions that cause drought which cause famines.  Sicknesses are a consequence of sin??...What sin is so great to make a child suffer from leukimia or cancer? 

And no, I didn't get anything from Milton,

Revelation 12:4, 7-9

It does exist.

A child doesn't have to expirence hate to know that his mother loves him.  Thats not to say that some do expirence hate but it is not a requirement. 
I'm not putting God in a box.  Just the oppisite. 

Look, believe what you want.  But I'm done arguing this.  You've missed the entire point I was getting at...Hell, I've gotten away from what I was trying to say.  Either way have a good one.

[srkruzich]

Either God created everything or he didn't, you can't have it both ways.  God created the serpent,  that fooled the woman, that ate from the tree, that grew in the garden that God made.  There would have been no sin if the condition of not eating thereof wasn't put into place. 

Conditions are put in place all the time.  Fire is one condition. Don't stick your hand in it or you will be burned.  By sticking ones hand in it, it is a direct choice by that individual to do so and the consequences of that action must be borne. 
God said do not eat of the tree.   The condition was Death.  they were WARNED!  You said earlier God never warns people.  THey were given a choice. They chose to do what they thought was best.  Not what God said for them to do.  That condition is pride!
So no God did not create sin.  Now did the serpent sin?  No, not against God but it could be argued against Man. SInce Angels, as well as animals are subject to mans authority, It could be said they sinned against Adam.  Thats a lot deeper discussion than i really wish ot get into right now.

Again, God created everything.  Including the viruses that causes sickness, or the birth defects, or the conditions that cause drought which cause famines.  Sicknesses are a consequence of sin??...What sin is so great to make a child suffer from leukimia or cancer? 

Yes Sickness is the result of sin.  Remember what God said.
The day that you eat you shall surely die.  At that moment death and sickness entered the world. What is sickness or death? The breaking down of bodies. Scientifically, our bodies started aging.  Cells dying, newer cells not being the same as the originals, offspring not carrying a pure dna since it was watered down through joining of two beings.
WE know scientifically that we as a society are screwed basically on DNA makeups. they are so messed up over time that we are seeing more sickness more defects and more deaths.


[qutoe]And no, I didn't get anything from Milton, [/quote]
Well that story you posted was directly from miltons paradise lost. 


Revelation 12:4, 7-9

DUDE this hasn't even happened!  THIS happens after armageddon. That has not happened yet. So no God has NOT cast out satan and the angels.  IN fact satan and angels go into heaven at will.  Just take a look at Job.  Satan went up to God and made a bet with him.  So he isn't cast out.

[Varmit]

Whatever..lol...