By The Sea......

Varmit · January 17, 2011, 09:53:38 PM

Quote from: Patriot on January 17, 2011, 07:16:17 PM
No argument at all. Just exploration. And it wasn't my intent to proselytize. Just look at different perspectives.

Fair enough. Guess I misunderstood you.

Quote from: srkruzich on January 17, 2011, 07:46:38 PM
a doctrine is 1. John 3:16, rom 10:9, and eph 2:8-9 basic doctrine of salvation. it isn't anything man made.
there are several doctrines, dispensational truths. But all of them point to the doctrine of salvation.

But how do we know this for certain? Without basing that certainty on any book or text?

srkruzich · January 17, 2011, 10:17:28 PM

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 09:53:38 PM
Fair enough. Guess I misunderstood you.

But how do we know this for certain? Without basing that certainty on any book or text?

what is it you want to be certain about? you cannot know anything unless you hear about it. faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of god. unless you hear it or read it you can't get it.

Roma Jean Turner · January 18, 2011, 09:29:33 AM

No grillin' from me Varmint. I certainly understand your perspective. And appreciate your sharing. I will try to find the You Tube video.

thatsMRSc2u · January 18, 2011, 10:03:40 AM

Welcome 2 my world Varmit

(ps you gotta watch patriot when he/she seems to be being reasonable...it's a setup for the "kill"

)

You have started down a very hard but very rewarding road. There is much documentation of other faiths...just as much as there is about Christianity and the best documentation of all......that still small voice.....it wont steer you wrong, you will find threads of Truth in almost all of them and then you will discover the truth that we are all connected. Mitakuye Oyasin

The other Elders in your aunts family can probly tell you a LOT...you are lucky!

redcliffsw · January 18, 2011, 10:16:49 AM

Srkruzich, you're right on.

Patriot · January 18, 2011, 10:37:15 AM

Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on January 18, 2011, 10:03:40 AM
Welcome 2 my world Varmit (ps you gotta watch patriot when he/she seems to be being reasonable...it's a setup for the "kill" )

BANG!

Varmit · January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM

Srkruich, you listed three examples of what you called the "doctrine of salvation". You say that these weren't man made yet they come from a book that was written by man. Long story short...how do we know that the Bible, as it is today, is the Word of God for a certainity? You can't say that if you read it enough or hear it enough that it becomes true. In a way, that is like telling a lie over and over again until you believe its true. I know thats a bad anaology but...still the same principle.

Patriot · January 18, 2011, 08:23:54 PM

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
Long story short...how do we know that the Bible, as it is today, is the Word of God for a certainity?

Conversely, how do we know it's not? This is a matter of faith. By definition things of faith remain a mystery to mortals. Bible or Buddha you need to make the same argument for all matters of spirituality.

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
You can't say that if you read it enough or hear it enough that it becomes true. In a way, that is like telling a lie over and over again until you believe its true. I know thats a bad anaology but...still the same principle.

Again, the Bible isn't the only thing that falls into this dilemma. Virtually all spiritual 'truths' must face the same scrutiny. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all manner of native American beliefs, Buddhism, Hinduism.... you name it.

Varmit · January 18, 2011, 08:34:18 PM

Quote from: Patriot on January 18, 2011, 08:23:54 PM
Conversely, how do we know it's not? This is a matter of faith. By definition things of faith remain a mystery to mortals. Bible or Buddha you need to make the same argument for all matters of spirituality

Well, first we can use the behavior of modern day christians as an example. They say that God spoke to the men who wrote the Bible. However, if a person does something and says "God told me to" they will call that person crazy depending on the action. So, in a way, they are changing the story to fit the so called "facts". Thats not faith, thats the outcome of brainwashing. True, you could say this about every major religion, and thats my point. Faith should open a persons eyes, not seal them shut to the truth.

QuoteAgain, the Bible isn't the only thing that falls into this dilemma. Virtually all spiritual 'truths' must face the same scrutiny. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all manner of native American beliefs, Buddhism, Hinduism.... you name it.

No doubt. Thats why I believe a person should take a look at all of them, with an open and unbiased mind. They all contain elements of truth. The mystery is why we as a people continue to fight one another over religion. When all we have to do is open our eyes to the fact that God is so much more than can be contained in a book. He is every where, in everything, at all times. No matter the name that we choose to call Him, Yaweh, Allah, He is the same. The only difference is how we choose to worship.

srkruzich · January 18, 2011, 10:07:11 PM

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
Srkruich, you listed three examples of what you called the "doctrine of salvation". You say that these weren't man made yet they come from a book that was written by man. Long story short...how do we know that the Bible, as it is today, is the Word of God for a certainity? You can't say that if you read it enough or hear it enough that it becomes true. In a way, that is like telling a lie over and over again until you believe its true. I know thats a bad anaology but...still the same principle.

For one reason its written by 40 authors directed by God. OF which out of 66 books, both the OT as well as the NT are in agreement with each other to start. THen you have where it is in total agreement with itself. THe perspectives of the authors give it a different angle view but are in agreement with the other authors. TIming of the penning of most of the new testament prevents collaboration to "get it Right" by comparing notes. But it is right and is accurate. Also history accounts for its authenticity and the events that happened. Josephus is one such man who wrote about it. His books agreee with the events.

Age of the bible, it is considered one of the oldest collections of books, that have lasted for longer than 2000 years. And it has remained true to the originals over the centuries. Granted there are a ton of psudo bibles out there, but you can go back to textus receptus and siniticus as a standard to compare.

Christianity is the only religion that says you do not have to work for your salvation. The rest require works/sacrifces ect ect to gain favor. Christianity is the only one where man gained favor in Gods eyes first. IN FACT Christianity is the only Belief out there where God came looking for us, not us seeking him.
All thats in the bible.

Simple logic tells me when everyone has a little truth, then they are on the wrong road. IF theres only a little truth in other beliefs to be gained, then it means theres a whole lot of lies in it. I mean come on, a little chocolate syrup colors the whole glass of milk doesn't it? does it change milk to chocolate?? Not a chance. So mixing a little truth to cover up a lot of lies is still a lie.