By The Sea......

[Varmit]

Well, He tells about His church in the Bible.  Not sure what you mean by "hung-up" but one has to wonder that they, or the whatever, all can't be right.   

I'm not saying that they are all right.  All I'm saying is that I don't think doctrine makes a bit of difference to God.  Just as I don't think that it is only so-called christians in heaven.  If God is a God of love then it doesn't make sense to say that only those who pray a certain way, or believe a certain way are going to heaven.  If that were the case, then the only folks to make it to heaven would be those that have heard the gospel.  And I just don't think that Gods wisdom, love, or understanding is limited to a bunch of words written in a book that was written by men and edited so many times that no one knows what the original said.

[Varmit]

Well Pam, I can't really say that it was one thing or another, bit of a combination.  I've always been a bit suspicious of organized religion but there were two things that I recently expirenced that got me thinking.  One was my aunts funeral (she was full blood oneida souix and had a traditional funeral) the other was (and I'm gonna get grilled for this one) a video I saw on youtube (yeah,...I know) called the Esotertic Agenda.  In it they talked about early civiliations and how varing religions came to be.  They talked about the design of our world and how everything in it has a purpose.  They showed how early religions that predate Christ have a very similiar storyline.  You'd have to watch it, they explain it better than I could.  Then theres the things that are missing from the Bible, dinosaurs for example.  We know they existed but the Bible makes no mention of them.  If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, making Cain and Abel the first born, then why would God mark Cain and cursed anyone who killed him if there were no one else on earth?  How was Cain able to take a wife if, at the time, the only other woman was his mother?  It just doesn't make sense.  

Then theres the psycology behind belife in the Bible.  Most christians you talk to will say that it is the Word of God penned by man thru divine inspiration.  My question is what do they have to base that on?  A bunch of guys that got together a few thousand years ago, wrote a book, and said that God spoke to us?  Yet they point fingers and yell "Crazy!" when somone like David Koresh says the exact same thing.  Abraham was asked by God to kill his son to prove his faith, and he would have done it if he hadn't been stopped.  Abraham is held up as an example to modern day christians as what it means to have faith and congerations will shout Halluelah!  Of course, they will also shout for the death penalty if someone were to kill their child and say "God told me to.". 

So all of these things combined makes me think that God is a lot bigger than we give Him credit for.

[thatsMRSc2u]

  I'm sorry bout your Aunt ,dude....for real.

   I gotta be honest.......what you wrote here gives me Hope. I have tried to get answers to those same questions you have....not had much luck. As for grillin ya about gettin Light from watchin a video on u-tube......hey...the Creator works in mysterious ways and wisdom is where you find it.....and it can be found in some very unlikely places sometimes.....EVEN the Bible

[Patriot]

...Then theres the things that are missing from the Bible, dinosaurs for example.  We know they existed but the Bible makes no mention of them.

'erets hayah tohuw bohuw choshek paniym tĕhowm

A bunch of guys that got together a few thousand years ago, wrote a book, and said that God spoke to us? 

The Bible was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors in quite diverse locations.  Not likely that they got together at all.  Now, how do we explain the sources of myriad of other spiritual belief systems?  And how is it that so many of them are held with so much less documented history.  From a scientific & mathematical standpoint, you will find there is vastly more evidence of the accuracy & continuity of Biblical texts than there is for the likes of any of the great philosophers...Pythagoras, Hippo, Diogenes, Aristotle, etc.  A scientifically significant statistical difference.

Abraham was asked by God to kill his son to prove his faith, and he would have done it if he hadn't been stopped.

Perhaps the lesson for man was 1) That he was stopped, and 2)That it was his faithfulness in following the belief that God would provide an escape from certain disaster.  Which God was faithful to provide.  A theme, btw that is consistent throughout the Bible, even to matters of salvation of the eternal persuasion.

Of course, they will also shout for the death penalty if someone were to kill their child and say "God told me to.". 

True, and absolute evidence that the Bible's evaluation of man's condition as being totally depraved at the core and in dire need of an escape from that condition is quite accurate.  Not unlike that silly situation Abraham was in.

So all of these things combined makes me think that God is a lot bigger than we give Him credit for.

On that we totally agree.  I've found that the more one really studies the Bible, taking into account the meanings of ancient languages the bigger God is than we are even able to give Him credit for.  I do sometimes wonder if those who are quick to try and find any possible inconsistency in (and hence possible escape from) the Bible are as equally hypercritical of their own belief systems.

[Patriot]

I'm not saying that they are all right.  All I'm saying is that I don't think doctrine makes a bit of difference to God.

Whose doctrine.... God's or man's?

Just as I don't think that it is only so-called christians in heaven.

I've maintained for years that pews in churches are filled with folks goin' straight to hell in a hand basket.  'So-called' Christians are a dime a dozen.  The Bible even teaches as much.  Just calling oneself a Christian don't necessarily make it so.  Nor does goin' to church every Sunday (twice on Easter).  I don't think the place will be populated by heathens either.

If God is a God of love then it doesn't make sense to say that only those who pray a certain way, or believe a certain way are going to heaven.  If that were the case, then the only folks to make it to heaven would be those that have heard the gospel.

There are at least 3 types of love expressed in the Bible... Generally the Bible only attributes one kind to God.  Which kind are you attributing to God in this case? The Bible never makes a certain kind(s) of prayer, nor even the hearing of the Gospel a condition for salvation.  As for who gets into heaven, aren't the conditions kinda God's decision?  And is God big enough to both set those conditions as well as make some exceptions if He so wishes.  And who said we are entitled to be consulted on such matters?  To hold an expectation of such might just be the height arrogance, no?  

I think the problem we often confront is our unwillingness to face & accept the Sovereignty of God.  Sovereignty sure can crimp our freestyle ways of thinking.  Kids just hate it when mom or dad set the rules.  Even more so when the rules seem arbitrary or capricious.  But then kids don't know it all, do they.  From a purely human perspective... sovereignty sucks...so why not question God?

And I just don't think that Gods wisdom, love, or understanding is limited to a bunch of words written in a book that was written by men and edited so many times that no one knows what the original said.

Again, I would bet your definition of 'love' here is not from a biblical perspective but rather a human one.  Varmit, while I can empathize with your sentiment,  I suspect that you are falling into a trap.  A very old trap.  How much have you really come to know about the oldest texts and comparisons to subsequent various translations?  How different are they really! What are the significant differences, why are bthe different and do those differences change the meanings? It sounds more like you may be upset that the Bible might be accurate and that if true you have extremely limited personal options regarding your personal salvation.  You are clearly an independent thinker.  So am I.  Having to accept certain absolutes was a real bitch for me.  I suspect it is for you as well. 

I once heard it suggested that shooting the messenger(s) doesn't change the message.  And the message wasn't first expressed in 20th or 21st century vernacular.

[Varmit]

Well, I don't speak whatever this is....

'erets hayah tohuw bohuw choshek paniym tĕhowm

so I don't see the point your trying to make.  As for how and when the Bible was written that is exactly my point.  It seems to me that if God wanted to cut down on the confusion He would have penned it pretty much all at once.  Without the conflicting text.  And the locations of the authors wasn't all that diverse, I mean they were all pretty much in the same part of the world.  As for the other religions, quite a few of them predate Christianity and their influence was more widespread.  Accuracy and Continuity?  Seriously?  Are you taking into account the texts that were edited out of the original when King James was editor-in-chief?  

Abraham didn't know God would intervene.  If he did then that totally negates the lesson.  But for the sake of argument lets say  you're right.  That God provides an escape from certain disaster.  So explain to me folks that pray for Gods help but never receive it.

True and absolute evidence of man condition??  More like true and absolute evidence that religion has been used to control the actions and thinking of its followers for years.  Not unlike the Jonestown or countless other tragedies.

I sometimes wonder if those who blindly follow the Bible, and are quick to judge others on the fallacy of their beliefs, have the courage to really look at their own and at least admit to the imperfections that, according to their own religion, are inherent in any work of man.

Now, all that being said I didn't post to start an argument.  I was asked about my reason for what I believe and I gave it.  

[Varmit]

Whose doctrine.... God's or man's?

Well, for modern day Christians sake, they better hope that God doesn't care for mans doctrine.  Cause I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was a Jew, not a Baptist.

I've maintained for years that pews in churches are filled with folks goin' straight to hell in a hand basket.  'So-called' Christians are a dime a dozen.  The Bible even teaches as much.  Just calling oneself a Christian don't necessarily make it so.  Nor does goin' to church every Sunday (twice on Easter).  I don't think the place will be populated by heathens either.

You're right. According to the Bible the way to Heaven is acceptance of Christ as Saviour.  But in my opinion I don't think that God would send a good person, who loved their family and neighbors, tried to help others when they could, to hell simply because that person was a buddhist, or whatever. 

The Bible never makes a certain kind(s) of prayer, nor even the hearing of the Gospel a condition for salvation.  As for who gets into heaven, aren't the conditions kinda God's decision?  And is God big enough to both set those conditions as well as make some exceptions if He so wishes.  And who said we are entitled to be consulted on such matters?  To hold an expectation of such might just be the height arrogance, no?  

Actually, the Bible does make hearing the Gospel a condition, in a way.  How can a person accept Christ w/out hearing His Gospel?  As far as being consulted on such matters, didn't God give us the gift of free thought?  And in doing so the right to question?  But that is actually beside the point, as is all of this, it is not God that I'm questioning but a book and those that would use that book to hold influence over people.

I think the problem we often confront is our unwillingness to face & accept the Sovereignty of God.  Sovereignty sure can crimp our freestyle ways of thinking.  Kids just hate it when mom or dad set the rules.  Even more so when the rules seem arbitrary or capricious.  But then kids don't know it all, do they.  From a purely human perspective... sovereignty sucks...so why not question God?

Don't get it twisted, I'm not questioning the Soveignty of God.  What I am questioning is our percieved understanding of Him. 

Again, I would bet your definition of 'love' here is not from a biblical perspective but rather a human one.  Varmit, while I can empathize with your sentiment,  I suspect that you are falling into a trap.  A very old trap.  How much have you really come to know about the oldest texts and comparisons to subsequent various translations?  How different are they really! What are the significant differences, why are bthe different and do those differences change the meanings? It sounds more like you may be upset that the Bible might be accurate and that if true you have extremely limited personal options regarding your personal salvation.  You are clearly an independent thinker.  So am I.  Having to accept certain absolutes was a real bitch for me.  I suspect it is for you as well. 

Not really.  I know their are certain absoutes.  I know that there is Love, peroid.  It is not "typed".  You either love or don't.  Most modern Christianity is based on the King James Bible, almost all christians today have a belief based on THAT text.  Which is flawed.  Again, look at the cain and able bit.  Which isn't exactly conflicting with other scripture but doesn't make sense.  Accuracy??  Let me ask you this, which book in the New Testament should readers believe when it comes to Christs last words on the cross?

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I mean you'd think they'd at least get that one right.










[/quote]

[Patriot]

Well, I don't speak whatever this is....so I don't see the point your trying to make.  

And that would be my point exactly.

As for how and when the Bible was written that is exactly my point.  It seems to me that if God wanted to cut down on the confusion He would have penned it pretty much all at once.  Without the conflicting text.

Would be interested in examining 'conflicting text' sometime.

And the locations of the authors wasn't all that diverse, I mean they were all pretty much in the same part of the world.

Given means of travel, life expectancies, etc. Thier world would have been larger than one might imagine.

Abraham didn't know God would intervene.  If he did then that totally negates the lesson.  But for the sake of argument lets say  you're right.  That God provides an escape from certain disaster.  So explain to me folks that pray for Gods help but never receive it.

1.  No, Abraham believed and acted on that faith.  Quite different than knowing.
2.  Perhaps in His wisdom He had/has a greater purpose that really is none of my concern.  Ultimately, why would I even ask?

You've acknowledged the existence of a god & I'm sure that you would even argue that life ain't a bed of roses or fair all the time.  So what does God have to do with it at all?

True and absolute evidence of man condition??  More like true and absolute evidence that religion has been used to control the actions and thinking of its followers for years.  Not unlike the Jonestown or countless other tragedies.

And what controls your actions and thinking?

I sometimes wonder if those who blindly follow the Bible, and are quick to judge others on the fallacy of their beliefs, have the courage to really look at their own and at least admit to the imperfections that, according to their own religion, are inherent in any work of man.

I've known many who are.

Now, all that being said I didn't post to start an argument.  I was asked about my reason for what I believe and I gave it.  

No argument at all.  Just exploration.  And it wasn't my intent to proselytize.  Just look at different perspectives.

[Patriot]

Well, for modern day Christians sake, they better hope that God doesn't care for mans doctrine.  Cause I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was a Jew, not a Baptist.

There' a difference between doctrine & religion.

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I mean you'd think they'd at least get that one right.

Could it be that He said everything reported by the three?  If so, then there would be no conflict, would there?  And none of the reported statements has any bearing on His message.

[srkruzich]

a doctrine is  1. John 3:16, rom 10:9, and eph 2:8-9   basic doctrine of salvation.    it isn't anything man made. 

there are several doctrines, dispensational truths.   But all of them point to the doctrine of salvation.