I Pledge of Allegiance... If it's ok with mom n dad or not or maybe or...

[Patriot]

In another thread Diane cautions that we can't 'return to what works' in our education system.  Here's what modern thinking processes get us.  Indecision, insecurity, vacillation  and a virtual loss of what used to be called common sense.  Personally, I think the gene pool is now hopelessly diluted.  In addition to the overall topic, consider the college edumacated idiot journalist who wrote the first line of the second paragraph.  Maybe we can't return to more stable ways of thinking & teaching, Diane.  If that's true, then you really smart people  better do something pretty quickly.  It seems we're on a fast track to the most foolish generation.

School sends home permission slips for Pledge of Allegiance

Updated: Wednesday, 22 Dec 2010, 10:10 PM EST
Published : Wednesday, 22 Dec 2010, 6:40 AM EST

BROOKLINE (FOX 25 / MyFoxBoston.com) - A Brookline school is now saying permission slips won't be necessary for students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

Beginning next month, all students at the Devotion School will say the Pledge over the school's intercom. The school's principal initially said the permission slips will encourage parents to have a discussion with their kids about the Pledge.

Full story:  http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/school-sends-home-permission-slips-for-pledge-of-allegiance-20101222

[Diane Amberg]

That is not what I meant and you know it! I said pick out the best parts of "now" and use it. Shall I suggest that kids in your school not be taught to use computers and hand held calculators and "technology" because we didn't have it years ago? How far back do you want to go? One room schools?  Duck and Cover? Have the parent of a "misbehaving" child come in and beat the kid in front of the class?  Now define misbehaving. The school I went to allowed plants on the window sill but no animals. How much the kids I taught would have missed in science without the little animals we had in class.  You want your kids to have nothing but hours and hours of seat work and papers to fill out?  No critical thinking activities? Just shut up and stay in your seat?
  Now stop turning my words back on me.  Look at the name of the school in the article. Is that a public school?  (Our schools here do still say the pledge every morning, not once a week.)  I can't explain why they did what they did. Not my job. Perhaps you could write to them and report back to us.    You want the schools returned to the states. If that is what Mass. does, do you still want that? (If your goal is to pick at me and get under my skin....why bother?)  You make generalities....I am just one person. If you take something odd that one school does, that doesn't mean every school is doing it.
   How about printing a list of merit scholars for a change and give out some positive vibes.  How about some good words for parents and students and teachers who do understand and together turn out well educated people who can be successful in today 's world. You want to go back to "then," then you have to accept that a certain percentage will wash out and quit. "Then" they weren't insisting everyone get an education. You didn't meet the school half way, don't let the door hit ya on the way out. Much cheaper too. No need for a huge bank of specialists to hold the kid's hand and work with them. Back here when they washed out they went to work on the farms, picked mushrooms, worked at the race tracks, or enlisted. There also just weren't as many people. Look how the population has increased in size and changed in character over the years. I don't know about you, but I graduated high school in 1962.  Things certainly have changed since then! They better have. Shoot, the elemental chart isn't even the same. No I don't agree with everything schools are doing; I told you that already. By trying to keep every parent and every interest group happy they aren't making anybody happy.
  Now since you seem to know a lot about all this, please explain to me "what works" for all children, no matter what their age, maturity level and ability, especially when some have no intention of cooperating and would prefer to disrupt the class to get attention. If you want, I can make you a list of the personality types all teachers have to deal with. But, you might recognize your self.
I'd like to defer to Angie. Her classes are more current than mine. She is, or soon will be up on all the newest teaching techniques.

[redcliffsw]

How many times is it necessary to recite the pledge of allegiance anyway?  If married, do you all get up every morning and recite your wedding vows? 

The "pledge" was written by a socialist.  The founding fathers never endorsed or even suggested reciting such a thing.

[Patriot]

That is not what I meant and you know it! ... Now stop turning my words back on me. (If your goal is to pick at me and get under my skin....why bother?) ... You make generalities....I am just one person.

Yes, you are but one person... one verbose whiner with a persecution complex, imo.  Some 12 uses of the personal pronoun I in your diatribe attest to the real topic of your retort. And yet nothing was really 'turned' on you.  It appears that you are, again, injecting your inflated sense of self importance into a general discussion.   It ain't always about you, diane!  The voices are wrong!!!  Yes, my post spoke in generalities.  The problem with that would be what, exactly?

The school I went to allowed plants on the window sill but no animals.

Sometimes, when reading your disjointed arguments & self centered prattle, one might conclude that your school disallowed quality teachers, as well.

(Our schools here do still say the pledge every morning, not once a week.)  I can't explain why they did what they did. Not my job.
Perhaps you could write to them and report back to us.

Nice to know what happens in 'your schools there.'  No one here asked for your explanation.  So now you can rest from your labor and worry.  Because you can't fail a non-task.  I'm never really expressed concern about their motives.  If you're so damned interested, write them yourself.

You want the schools returned to the states. If that is what Mass. does, do you still want that?

You bet your bippy, missy.  Go find a copy of the Bill of Rights.  That would be the first ten (10) amendments to the US Constitution.  Read Amendment  X (Number 10).

You want to go back to "then," then you have to accept that a certain percentage will wash out and quit.

I fully accept that a certain percentage will wash out & quit in the here and now, let alone 'then'!  Only a foolish, progressive, hopey changey, Utopian seeker type would dare fly in the face of the statistical  reality that some folks will fail/quit... at school, at work and in life.  You aren't a foolish, progressive, hopey changey, Utopian seeker type, are you?

Back here when they washed out they went to work on the farms, picked mushrooms, worked at the race tracks, or enlisted

You are clearly suggesting that working on farms, picking mushrooms, working at race tracks or enlisting in the US Armed Forces are somehow bad, dishonorable or indicative of failure!  As a 10 year enlisted veteran, subsequently owning 2 successful businesses and now working as a farmer, I might just argue otherwise.  There's no doubt some other vets here and elsewhere would disagree, as well. We'll patiently await an apology for your insult to the verity, quality & contributory nature of our service.  The farmers here would surely like an apology as well.  If that's your picture, it would appear that their labors haven't passed by your plate!

(Sidenote to other readers... see how poorly chosen words can come back to bite. I think this goes directly to the point of the original post.  To wit: "Here's what modern thinking processes get us.  Indecision, insecurity, vacillation  and a virtual loss of what used to be called common sense." )

Now since you seem to know a lot about all this, please explain to me "what works" for all children, no matter what their age, maturity level and ability, especially when some have no intention of cooperating and would prefer to disrupt the class to get attention.

This post wasn't designed to solve all the ills of education... But since your highness asked...
1.  Nothing will work for ALL children.  We've already addressed that.
2.  Return control of local schools to locals.  Get the one size fits all, big government bureaucrats out of the mix.
3.  Institute & enforce stringent, ongoing performance & outcome testing & standards for all teachers.
4.  Eliminate all participation of teachers unions in political and political agenda related activities.  Limit teachers unions strictly to collective wage/benefit negotiations.
5. Institute enforceable community standards for teacher behavior & enforce them.
6. Stop rewarding districts financially based on the results of standardized test scores.
7. Require that teachers work 12 months each year.  For those months that children are not in class, teachers should attend upgrade training in their specialties or in technology, etc.  Payem for a full year and workem for a full year.  That's how most of the rest of us earn a living.
8.  Return to clear, reasonable behavior standards for students.  Enforce em!  Stop worrying about political correctness based stupidity like no GI Joes, no forks, etc.  Stick with sensible, non-distracting dress/grooming/behavior/productivity standards, etc. 

Kids see current events.  Until the see teachers walking the walk, all else is moot.  Improve teachers/administrators...THEN work on the kids.

By no means all that's needed, but there's a start.

I'd like to defer to Angie. Her classes are more current than mine. She is, or soon will be up on all the newest teaching techniques.

Me too!  She's level headed, stays on topic & doesn't ramble.

[Patriot]

How many times is it necessary to recite the pledge of allegiance anyway?  If married, do you all get up every morning and recite your wedding vows? 
The "pledge" was written by a socialist.  The founding fathers never endorsed or even suggested reciting such a thing.

Points very well made, sir.  Please note my concern wasn't about the pledge... but about the indecision, confusion and foolishness of the adults in general and what those things say about the system that educated those adults..

[Diane Amberg]

If you choose to see everything I say as an insult, I guess that's your privlidge. I spoke only the truth as it was. If you choose to interpret everything I say into something else, that's on you. I can only speak from my own life and experiences, not anyone else's so of course I would use "I," unless you want me to start using the royal "we."  I don't know why you seem to have made me a personal project and need so badly to try to make me look bad.  So what?  Who made you the expert on how I should be? Are you the true representative of Elk County? Are they all like you? Does anyone else ever dare to disagree with you or are they immediately labeled in some negative way? Count up the number of posts and subjects you have started. What is it you expect by doing that? Discussion? apparently not. Unending agreement?  A whole army of "yes men?" I thought a forum was for open discussion about a topic, not about the writer. Boy was I wrong! Enjoy your holiday and I'll enjoy the people from Elk County who do write to me and tell me to ignore certain people.

[Lookatmeknow!!]

Ok, this is my take on things. Patriot, you want the control of schools turned away from the government. I don't think that many would disagree with you. But my question to you, where does the money come from to pay the bills of the school. It takes alot of money to pay the teachers and basically run the school. Like I stated before, you as well as I know how they work, they give the schools the money they control how it is spent. And boy they really do control it. I just don't see anytime soon, that the government will be out of the school systems. They even but into the private ones, I think not sure on this but think they do.

I think that some of the new ideas that I know have been mentioned, Diane. Treat each child as a individual, that is the main one that I really am for. Each child learns different, there are no two children out there that are the same. You have to adjust your teaching styles to the students. You can't follow the books on everything. I also believe that making the classes as fun and interesting gets the teachers attention. You have to remember that teachers are having to compete with TV, games, and all sorts of different things than there was years ago. As a teacher, they have so much more to be accountable for, also.

There is no answer to how to do it, but it is and can be done. Diane, it's ok!! I am pretty open minded, and see your side, too.  Patriot, I think that the school that sent this note out has terrible leadership!! LOL- sorry!!

[jarhead]

Quote from Diane
Are you the true representative of Elk County? Are they all like you? Does anyone else ever dare to disagree with you or are they immediately labeled in some negative way?

1. Can't speak for everyone Diane but my answer would be--------------
Don't know if Patriot is even from Elk county but although feeble, I do have a mind of my own.
2. Not on every belief and post
3.  yes, I sometimes disagree and would probably be labeled in a negative way but that's OK---been there, done that before. I am just taking the Holiday season off. 

[Diane Amberg]

  . Not hardly feeble!  No, we don't always agree. I wouldn't expect to but manners would be nice.
  One would think that the perspective of a person who spent years in a classroom would be useful and meaningful, but when traps are set and words are twisted, nothing I say will ever be allowed to mean what I meant.That is a shame. I started out here being very interested in the people of my father and grand father and great grandfather's town. I really cared and very much enjoyed making a connection with you all. The people on here seemed to enjoy me too for a couple of years. Then a certain person joined and told people that I was an outsider and wasn't to be trusted.  Soon I was labeled as the enemy and I've had my back against the wall ever since. No matter what I say it will be judged badly. If I say I don't like having what I say interpreted to mean something else, I'm "whiny". On the one hand, one just complained about the numbers of people who don't make it with basic education, but then said well sure, not everybody can be educated. Then throw them out of the number pool and look again! Every case is individual and our Gov't isn't helping it any.
Ramble? Me? Sure, because it's me writing spontaneously, not some professional blogger who works for hours on a piece before one of you copies it. But it has become fashionable to kick me like the dog that lives under the porch and if possible be personally rude and mean because some know they can get away with it. I don't understand it, but if that's what Elk County has become, so be it. As far as the topics on the Politics board, most all are gripes or negative or "whiny" in some way. It's complaints or nothing. One would think that was the whole point! So then everybody must agree and line up to follow the writer into the sunset or face verbal execution? Those rules need to be posted somewhere so people who come later will know that no "thinking" or questioning is encouraged. Just agree and move on, no real adult mature debate is allowed. If anything only a cat fight will do. Yes, I know this is off topic, but this is expected to be my last on any political topic since a couple of you have made it quite clear that there is chain of command and I'm going to always be washing out the garbage cans, so why bother. I refuse to take part any anyone's "challenge" as when another of us asked someone to cut out the rudeness.  So a few of you who have made yourselves a nice little posse can have fun now as the number of posters gets smaller and smaller.
Thanks Angie for the kind words. This old lady needed to hear some. I hope you all can find Christmas in your hearts, but for a few it sure doesn't show. I'm outta here.

[Patriot]

If you choose to see everything I say as an insult, I guess that's your privlidge.

Everything that you say?  Hardly.  I think not.  For you to say that is clearly a psychological projection on your part.   But the following is either a clear expression of your stereotypical thinking or a clear demonstration of what a lousy grasp you have of the English language.  How about you enlighten us as to which it is... 

Back here when they washed out they went to work on the farms, picked mushrooms, worked at the race tracks, or enlisted

You are apparently blind to the interpretation of your own writings.  You obviously didn't care enough to respond or clarify, thus indicating you stand by your statement.  I'll repeat here my response to your clear view as to where 'washouts' end up...

You are clearly suggesting that working on farms, picking mushrooms, working at race tracks or enlisting in the US Armed Forces are somehow bad, dishonorable or indicative of failure!  As a 10 year enlisted veteran, subsequently owning 2 successful businesses and now working as a farmer, I might just argue otherwise.  There's no doubt some other vets here and elsewhere would disagree, as well. We'll patiently await an apology for your insult to the verity, quality & contributory nature of our service.  The farmers here would surely like an apology as well.

I spoke only the truth as it was. If you choose to interpret everything I say into something else, that's on you.

Or spoke the truth as you see it.  Which doesn't make it truth.  I'm beginning to seriously doubt your ability to know truth if it hit you between the eyes.

I can only speak from my own life and experiences...

Perhaps so.  Which are by no means omniscient or absolute.  But many of your musings comes across as if your experience & knowledge of most subjects is superior to most other posters on this forum.   The fact is that you usually drift completely off the course set by any initial posting.  And you do so in spite of being so informed! 

I don't know why you seem to have made me a personal project and need so badly to try to make me look bad.

Project?  Hardly.  Don't flatter yourself.  A project requires effort. 

Perhaps, with the exception of one or two others, I'm the only one willing to reflect openly on your more convoluted or self absorbed postings.  As to making you look bad.... I don't make you look any particular way.  You do just fine all by your self.  All I do is highlight the statements you make.  If your own comments make you look bad in retrospect, then learn to think more clearly and carefully before you post.

So what?  Who made you the expert on how I should be?

Let's see. Since you've set the tone here, I need to match it.  OK, how's this:  Neener, neener, neener!
Wow!  How unsatisfying was that?

Are you the true representative of Elk County? Are they all like you? Does anyone else ever dare to disagree with you or are they immediately labeled in some negative way? Count up the number of posts and subjects you have started. What is it you expect by doing that? Discussion? apparently not. Unending agreement?  A whole army of "yes men?"

No, no, yes, no, no expectation, asked and answered, no & no.  That was easy.  It was also a waste of time.

Most of what I post here are references to outside sources.  If they are unappealing, I suspect people won't read them.  That would be their choice.  If they comment or don't comment, that would be their choice as well. Why on earth would I have any expectation of anything?

I thought a forum was for open discussion about a topic, not about the writer. Boy was I wrong!

I opine you're wrong about many things.  That isn't one of them.  But I think it was Teresa who tried to make it clear, especially about the politics forum... If you're gonna stick your hands in, don't bitch & whine if your fingers get cut off.

Enjoy your holiday and I'll enjoy the people from Elk County who do write to me and tell me to ignore certain people.

Thanks for the permission, and I'll enjoy those who thank me for being one who is finally calling you on your obvious issues.  But I think I'll enjoy the holidays more.  Merry Christmas to all.