Building doesn't collapse

[Patriot]

So Patriot, you consider the debate considering 9/11 to be a distraction. 

I am suggesting that the energy put forth in debating such things ad nauseam in venues like this likely solves little, changes few minds and can serve as a distraction from the current acts of those who would sully the republic.

World domination is the goal of the ZioNeocons, and apathetic Americans are helping them reach that goal.

Do you know anyone who goes by the name Anmar?  Zionist Neocons or ZioNeocons (interesting conjunction) were something Anmar alluded to several times back in Oct of this year.  And a term not terribly common in ElkSpeak.  Just wondering if you two knew each other.

[Sailmexico]

Patriot - No I don't know anyone by the name Anmar, and although I'm sure the term has been used before and I've probably seen it, I coined the term on the spot.  It's a reasonable moniker for the two ideologies most responsible for the current world "situation" and undoubtedly in collusion.

I am not an anti Semite, or anti any culture.  I am anti ignorance, cruelty, selfishness and arrogance, no matter what the bloodline.

Interestingly enough few people realize that most Zionists are not Semites, they are Khazars... Ashkanzi Jews of Eastern European descent, whose ancestors were converted to Judaism in the 7th century.  Ironically Palestinians are the Semites.

And I agree with you that debating 9/11 in Howard Kansas is a form of mental masturbation.  But on a rainy day when there is nobody influential to debate... well like I said... it'll have to do.

I'm getting ready to really throw a snake in the hen house though.  It should be fun <evil laugh>.

[Patriot]

Patriot - No I don't know anyone by the name Anmar...
...I'm getting ready to really throw a snake in the hen house though.  It should be fun <evil laugh>.

Okeedokee.  Well it almost seemed like you have an evil twin out there.  Toss the snake, I hear they taste like chicken.

[Sailmexico]

one given to intellectualism & verbosity.

Sounds like an insult.  I'll take it to mean informed and articulate. 

I'm certainly no intellectual.  I'm just a barely-got-out-of-high-school graduate, with a PHD in the school of hard knocks.  I was formed in the Judeo-Christian, conservative, Republican, capitalist mold, but evidently had too much compassion and not enough fear to maintain my shape.  I'd probably be labeled a Liberal, but I just consider myself to be what Americans think they are when they espouse "liberty and justice for all". 

[twirldoggy]

I for one like the talk about 9/11.  It is intellectually stimulating and interesting. 

[Diane Amberg]

I 'm not going to add much more because some of you will beat me down because I'm not out where you are and no matter what I say I am one of "them." If I am to be convinced that our Pres. did that to us then there better never be another Republican President in my lifetime,I would be so disgusted. Teresa said something about getting information from the Internet. Almost none of mine came from there. I don't need it,especially not those "alternative sites." Being in the fire service, we have totally different channels for information. After the first trade center bombing we had a speaker at a special conference in Dover nine months later when the investigations were finished. His name was Paul Maniscalco. He was the officer in charge of the entire incident and coordinated with the police, Security, Port Authority etc. He did a three hour program in ugly graphic detail with information and photos not available to the public. He also wrote a handbook on the Incident Command System that is commonly used today. A very good professional source. By the time 2001 happened he had retired. A contemporary of his, who I will not name, came back here and did another program. It was much later because the NYC investigation went on for so long. Among other things we learned what was proved, what was possibly true, what was speculation and what was false. Again we heard radio messages and dispatches, heard and saw witness accounts of the first and second planes and saw much footage that is not available to the public. Much of it was raw footage at the time and had not been cleaned up or edited.. You might have heard of Lou Angeli, a personal good friend of many years, who is a fire service photographer.  He was there within two hours of the towers' fall. He was allowed access to everything because everybody knows who he is.   He too got loads of footage and many, many interviews, especially from the fire fighters themselves. I've seen a lot of his stuff too. We also have seen programs done by the construction firm who built the buildings, the structural engineers and the design engineers, and the architects,  Minoru Yamasak's associates. The fire service has a vested interest in knowing how buildings are designed so we won't be in them when they fall down! I'm sorry Frank Brannigan isn't still alive.   He was the real pro when it came to knowing what buildings do when they are on fire and what things cause what to happen .Unfortunately that is one weak spot with architectural design.They want buildings to be pleasing to the eye and fit the budget of those who hire them. Safety is something the fire service has to fight for.
We have to know a lot about a lot of different things and how they look and act while burning.  Fire chemistry, metallurgy, gasses, pet-chem, general poisons, MSDS, the entire placarding system,and lots more. I also took the Fire Marshals arson course.  Some 2000 slides and several weekends later I could almost always find the source of a fire and what caused it.vThermite anyone?I even know how to make it! So say "poor Diane, in over her head again" all you want. You don't really know who I am, or who my connections are. I really am your friend, or I try to be. Leave it at that..I'm really sorry some of you feel the way you do, but that's your problem and I can't fix that even as much as I'd like to.

[Teresa]

Thank you Twirldoggy.. I feel that way about a lot of subjects in here that is discussed.. I have learned a lot and also actually changed my way of thinking on several issues because of the debates.

Patriot... ..just for your information.. I'm probably closer to being this guys "evil twin" than you can imagine. I've known him most of my adult life.. Been through a whole lot together..
He's definitely on the top rung of the ladder in intelligence and one who never yells fire unless its blazing..one of those very few who I would trust enough to call from my bunker when the shit hits the fan.... * I'm just sayin.......*

Having said that.. I want to share with you something.  I have been talking extensively with a die hard Liberal whom I have never met in person. ( one of my facebook friends actually) for a few weeks.  It has been interesting and actually enlightening in some areas. I have found that actually I am an independently conservative cake with a thin layer of liberal icing.
He also decided after talking to me that he isn't as hard nosed Liberal as he thought.. as we agreed on several issues. He is a gun owner.. so fortunately that subject was agreed on. from the start but we both agreed to open up our minds * that sometimes is the hard part*
and get off our mind set stools.. to just really listen to each others views and arguments.

What I'm getting at is... I have admitted finally that I have had a stubborn mindset about some things. .. where actually~~ I DO see where I have been not listening to my own thoughts and gut feelings. In my heart I believed one way but by stubborn hard nose conservative outer grit.. I'd be damned if I would admit it.

I've changed.. All of a sudden I'm not afraid to stand up and say what I feel in my heart.. (I've believed 9/11 was an inside job the first day I watched the buildings fall.) It made me sick and horrified.. but I still believed what I saw. But I never said too much outside of family.. When I did say things pertaining to it.. some would nod their head in agreement.. ( and stayed silent) and then those that disagreed loudly protested.. I guess they thought it made them look like better Americans.
But what kind of American can help cover up such an atrocity as this one? When did digging and searching for the truth become something to hide or be muffled?

Sailmexico is dead on when he says "America is doomed if the treachery of our current fascist government is not revealed.  But even then Americans must be shaken from their apathy and take action before they are tagged, disarmed and bled to death."..
There is "no sides" here folks!  We talk and discuss the corruption of the government.and the socialistic direction it is taking every single day! Easy to talk about Obama being an illegal..( I mean the PROOF of him being otherwise to me isn't there) Its easy to see the George Soros cronies....and the Acorn crooks..
But... we can not  physically SEE the people who have died or the people whose lives have been forever ruined by these people on our TV and computer screens.
9/11 is on such a huge visual scale that it is hard to imagine that there are those out there that really DON'T have a heart.. conscience and their soul is black as tar. I mean we WATCHED it..like you would a movie.. people screaming.. and jumping out of buildings.. and every gory bit of the battlefield..
WE SAW IT!! It was like we were there! Americans couldn't have done this!! I mean~~ Americans hearts are kind and good.................................................. right?  I still like to hope that the majority is..

The fact that we as Americans question it.. and continue to dig and research events even if what we find is hard to swallow... is proof that our hearts and minds aren't made up of what we are having to see. That we ARE Free Americans and no one is going to be able to do this and get away with it.

If we get docile and quit caring.. ( which is what the ones in power in government want us to do) then they win. They will be able to program us.. load us up in cattle cars.. tell us we can't grow our vegetables... tell us we have to be strip searched to pass into another city.. tell us we can't pray with our kids.. and I'm afraid that we will be so numb and blind with no will of our own left... that it WILL happen.  Its been proven time and time and time again many times in history... Not drama.... fact!
Think about it!!!

[Sailmexico]

Teresa... dead on darlin'.  Thanks for the compliment too (evil twin).

I read a book a few years ago entitled Freakonomics.  It was an enlightening read, written by a statistician.  Among many of the things he was able to prove using statistical analysis was that the higher up the organizational ladder you climb the more dishonesty you find.  It makes sense if you think about it.  A dishonest lier has a distinct advantage over an honest person in achieving personal advantage over others.

Imagine a game of Monopoly with three honest players and a sociopath, who has no conscience.  The dishonest player will win every game... especially if he is the banker.  He miscounts a move avoiding jail, or palms a 500, or miscounts change.  Whatever.

Shouldn't we expect the same thing in politics?  The ones at the top are not the "cream" of society in terms of morality and honesty; they are the shit that floats.  But we've been conditioned to trust them.  They smile and lie to us and make their deals with the devil, and we lose... and lose... and now we're on the verge of losing everything.  And forget about our children or grandchildren.  They were broke before they were born.

Who will our grandchildren blame?  I know who I blame.  My grandfather for letting FDR lie us into World War II, and my great grandfather for allowing Wilson to give the bastards (Federal Reserve) the monopoly on printing our own money and then loaning it to us at interest.  Our grandchildren will blame us and they'll have every right to do it.  It will be common knowledge then that we stupidly accepted the lies of 9/11, and supported the war crimes of Afghanistan and Iraq, enriching the elite who own the equity in the companies have profited billions of dollars from those wars.

[jarhead]

Well Robert & Jennifer, I guess I join your ranks as being one of the "stupid ones" but I do not believe in all the conspiracy theories about our / my Govt. on 9-11. For ever "truther" that has the "proof" the "other side" has "their proof" too. As for needing the attacks to go to war with Iraq, has everyone forgot the whole world thought that Saddam  had WMD's . That was excuse enough. I will now retire to the pasture with the rest of "the sheep' but I would like to hear WARPH's & Sarge's take on this . I do value their well thought out opinion

[Sailmexico]

Jarhead

has everyone forgot the whole world thought that Saddam  had WMD's . That was excuse enough.

First of all, the whole world did not believe Saddam had WMD's.  Maybe in your uninformed world but the whole point here is the reason you were uninformed it that you were lied to by your government.  Bush, Cheney and the rest of the club knew for a fact Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction.  You should know this by now.

Just google the keywords and you'll find plenty more where this came from

On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam's inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail.

BUT more importantly, let's assume Saddam did have WMDs.  Let's assume your neighbor Bubba is armed to the teeth and is given to screaming at you from his front porch, and you think he's crazy.  You've notified the authorities and complained; you've told them he poses a threat to you and your family. 

Since the police tell you they can't do anything because he really hasn't done anything illegal.  They issue a warning.

That's not enough for you so you break into his house and kill him (and a few of his children... but hey... that's just collateral damage). 

Now what do the laws of any civilized country in the world say about that?  What would they do to you?  They'd try you for murder and justifiably so. 

So if attacking Saddam and displacing over a million innocent Iraqis from their homes and killing untold thousands of them is "good enough for you", then maybe you're guilty of sanctioning murder.  Because murder is what it is.

Oh yeah... the police searched your neighbor's house and didn't find any weapons after all.  But you'd probably justify that because he was a bad father and abusive husband, and you rid the house of this monstrous individual - along with some of those he abused.