Building doesn't collapse

[Varmit]

I didn't lose anyone on 9/11.

[Diane Amberg]

By the way, if you and Mr. Sail hadn't brought up "truthers,"I wouldn't have known what they are. I'd never have heard of them. I knew about "birthers" but truthers was a new one. What I posted was from something that was sent to me by someone who was trying to explain why certain people can debate issues and never get personal or angry and why some can't get past 10 words without moving into personal insults, trying to discredit or embarrass the person when their issues and evidence are strong.   It was very enlightening, and frankly very sad. As I said before, I tried to draw my posting to a close several times but a certain one had to have the last word and kept the misinformation going. You are welcome to read the article for yourself, but rather than posting it here and having some of you think I am rubbing your noses in it, which is not my intent at all, look it up for yourself. (9-11truthers exposed Oct 6 2009.) If you Google it, it's the second one, although the first one is pretty entertaining too.
There are more than a couple of you who could heed your own lesson. Instead of blowing your top, put on the big boy/girl undies and deal with it. I don't like the suggestion I should be injured ,especially by someone who later denied it and I think deleted it .Slam my hand in a car door? No, I haven't forgotten, nor will I.  No apologies, no nothing. Don't lecture me on what  should or shouldn't have been said. I'm still waiting for some apologies myself. Calling me a bastard was OK?  HA! No, I don't like being called a liar and, I didn't like having people who were at the pile and in the mouth of the beast being called liars. If they were paid off they sure didn't share any with me!  I also don't like being patronized like some teen aged girl. ( Poor Diane, she's in over her head again) I have more than 40 years experience now and it's still going on. Some of you who were in the military for a few years want to be still be seen as experts. Can any of you match an active 42 years?  I think I must have learned something along the way. You don't want to hear about our training, I still don't know why not. You all talk about your experiences and I enjoy hearing about all of them.
I have one fellow here I admire very much. He started out as a firefighter and was in NYC for much of what happened, including what went on with buildings 6 and7. Later he joined the Marines and served for several years and is thankfully home safe to stay. Would you have the nerve to call a Marine a liar? Actually I've had several of them offer to come on here and try to explain 9-11  from their point of view. I told them I wouldn't risk having them treated like a few of you treat me and they just laughed.  Actually they were a lot more sympathetic to your concerns than I would have thought. As the one young man said, "You have to remember they have no point of reference." So go ahead and let me have it again if it makes you feel better. I'm used to being your whipping boy/girl now.  But I'll not change my passion about certain things just to please you. I'll also appreciate  you not putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. If I come across too strong, that I will apologize for.
  As far as 9-11, listen to each other! Those of you who think it was a Gov't conspiracy can't even agree among yourselves!
It's actually kind of funny in a morbid sort of way. No more 9-11 I don't know why it started up in the first place
    Now "it all about me" will be very busy for a few days so I'll probably stay off here. I've got food bank collections to deliver, the rest of the kid's Christmas party things to organize,(which is pain since our sound system blew) We just put a Toys for Tots box by the fire station tree so I'll be donating to that. Tomorrow night is the start of Newark Winter Fest and the annual reindeer run which benefits the Special Olympics.They register and start at our fire house so I'll be helping at registration. Then we light City Christmas tree and have hot chocolate, roasted chestnuts and Christmas carols, and shiver. I'll be helping Santa get dressed before he leads the run down the street on Ol' Bessie, our 1926 Seagraves pumper. Saturday night is our firehouse Christmas banquet and dance. Monday is Bingo night once again and I'll sell games for that again.  Next week I need to go to a couple of schools to make a fuss over three fire prevention winners who were unable to come to us to get their awards. Then I need  to count up all  the fire prevention programs and count about how many people I contacted this year for our end of year tally.  But...It's all about me.

[Patriot]

Good gawd woman.... take a breath, will ya?

[Varmit]

By the way, if you and Mr. Sail hadn't brought up "truthers,"I wouldn't have known what they are. I'd never have heard of them. I knew about "birthers" but truthers was a new one.

So you'd have us believe that this is the first time you've ever heard of somone calling for the truth about 9/11?  I find that hard to believe given that you make reference to hearing this argument before.  

" Next year will be the 10th. It will all be hashed over again and once again the builders and structural engineers  and metallurgists and fire fighters will be ignored because conspiracy theories are more fun"

What I posted was from something that was sent to me by someone who was trying to explain why certain people can debate issues and never get personal or angry and why some can't get past 10 words without moving into personal insults, trying to discredit or embarrass the person when their issues and evidence are strong.  

Interesting...espcially seeing as how I haven't insulted anyone on this thread.  In fact it was the opposing side of this debate that started in with the insults and name calling.  From your 3rd post on this thread...

 

Just because some fool heard the word Bentonite used in conjunction with the buildings they figured that had to be an explosive! It's not.

There are more than a couple of you who could heed your own lesson. Instead of blowing your top, put on the big boy/girl undies and deal with it. I don't like the suggestion I should be injured ,especially by someone who later denied it and I think deleted it .Slam my hand in a car door? No, I haven't forgotten, nor will I.

Then enlighten us Diane.  I haven't forgotten who made that comment either.  And seeing as how that person is agreeing with you on this thread, it really doesn't apply here.  Unless of course, you are trying to paint "Truthers" in an unfavorable light.  You know, attacking them instead of their argument.  

HA! No, I don't like being called a liar and,...

Then don't lie.  You stated on the very first page of this thread that you'd seen a program in which the architect who designed and built the towers explain what happened.  That was a lie.  The architect died before 9/11.  So, if you don't like being called a liar, don't lie.  

I didn't like having people who were at the pile and in the mouth of the beast being called liars. If they were paid off they sure didn't share any with me!  

You said yourself that the people there helping to clean up etc, didn't know for sure what had happened.  

I also don't like being patronized like some teen aged girl. ( Poor Diane, she's in over her head again) I have more than 40 years experience now and it's still going on. Some of you who were in the military for a few years want to be still be seen as experts. Can any of you match an active 42 years?  I think I must have learned something along the way. You don't want to hear about our training, I still don't know why not. You all talk about your experiences and I enjoy hearing about all of them.

And yet you would have us take your word for what happened that day, even though the information you present you admit to gaining second hand.  Seeing as how you were at a fire service conference at the time.

I have one fellow here I admire very much. He started out as a firefighter and was in NYC for much of what happened, including what went on with buildings 6 and7. Later he joined the Marines and served for several years and is thankfully home safe to stay. Would you have the nerve to call a Marine a liar?

What does his being a marine have to do with anything?  Not that it really matters, but if I think he's lying then I'll call him on it.

Actually I've had several of them offer to come on here and try to explain 9-11  from their point of view. I told them I wouldn't risk having them treated like a few of you treat me and they just laughed.

And yet you'd treat vets in a way you that you'd not have them treated.  Interesting.

 

Actually they were a lot more sympathetic to your concerns than I would have thought. As the one young man said, "You have to remember they have no point of reference."

And how does that make us any different from you, Diane?  Again, their being service members doesn't grant them any special insight.  In fact, I would say that it hampers their ability to see the truth, in that they are obligated to follow orders given to them without the benefit of enough time to analyize them.

As far as 9-11, listen to each other! Those of you who think it was a Gov't conspiracy can't even agree among yourselves!
It's actually kind of funny in a morbid sort of way. No more 9-11 I don't know why it started up in the first place  

Thats the thing, we don't have to agree on every specific detail about what happend.  All we are doing is pointing to huge gaping holes in the offical story.  No one, other than those actually responsible it, knows for sure what happened.  

[Diane Amberg]

My goodness, this is about the last place I expected to be this morning but I saw you had posted again and wanted to see what you had to say.  No, YOU have not insulted me deliberately on this subject, but I stand on my principles. I did not lie to you about the program on either PBS or Discovery or where ever I saw it. I've tried to find it again but it just isn't out there. As far as who did the program, it obviously wasn't Yamasaki I was referring to, as you say he had died sometime before.This project started when I was still in high school. But Yamasaki wasn't a one man shop. He had a bunch of associates and the whole firm of Emery Roth and Sons as architects working with him, as well as all the various design engineers construction engineers etc.  It's a long list. It was one of them that hosted the program and showed the drawings of the buildings and that tubular design and the animation of the floor supports giving 'way. It also showed how the heat from the modern jets and all that fuel burning overwhelmed the fire resistant material that had been sprayed on the inside of the beams and of course the sprinklers were destroyed. As far as my comment about some fool hearing the word Bentonite....who did you think I was talking about? Certainly nobody on here, as it didn't come up from any of you.  It really isn't all about you either.  It came from from an article I found after we had started talking about all this. I don't have any idea who it was but my comment still stands. As far as your comments about my friends...well, that is sad but there is apparently nothing that people who were there at the time and for a very long time after can say that you would believe. Perhaps someday they will how the tapes again of the cranes pulling down Bld. 6. No, I had never heard of an organized group called "truthers" before, strange as that might seem. But enough from me or I'll get yelled at for posting"too much,"not that others don't post much longer pieces than I do. Have beautiful winter weekend and I do mean that seriously.

[Varmit]

I did not lie to you about the program on either PBS or Discovery or where ever I saw it. I've tried to find it again but it just isn't out there. As far as who did the program, it obviously wasn't Yamasaki I was referring to, as you say he had died sometime before.

Yes, it was as you plainly stated so.  You made no references to others that may have worked on the project.

Uh, then why bother with the planes? Why would George Bush coordinate such a thing? Why don't people talk to the fire service and the engineers and the architect who built it. Actually, he did do a program explaining what happened.  I saw it and wish I could find it again.

As far as my comment about some fool hearing the word Bentonite....who did you think I was talking about? Certainly nobody on here, as it didn't come up from any of you.

Never said it was directed at anyone on here.  I posted it to show that it isn't truthers that are calling names and such, as you stated.  You referenced an article that was sent to you...

And it was one of my "fake" friends that sent me the several pages on the Truthers. Actually, your reaction is what the article said Truthers would do.Try to devalue the worth of someone that has an an opposing idea. Make them appear to be without any knowledge of the subject, preferably publicly. Especially if it's someone in authority. As far as my "whining" that stopped that long ago once I figured out that the crudeness of a few came naturally. I even warned you I would no longer put up with personal attacks. I have been true to my word. However, I have not cussed anybody out, used rude rough language, called anybody stupid or tried to make anyone feel inferior for having a different idea.

You've taken what I said out of context.  The fact is that you've been caught and now are trying to backpeddle.  On several occasions you stated that you had information that wasn't availble to the public but you won't state your source, you said that you heard the original dispatches not tapes then say that you heard the dispacthes from tapes.  Then when someone calls you out on your inconsistencies you go off on a rant about how you're being attacked personally and bring up things that were said on different threads that have nothing to do with the discussion.  Yet, over all that we get lectured about how we are insulting the victims, about how we should take your word for it...c'mon.

[Diane Amberg]

 Varmit, I don't know how to word this.The dispatches we heard were on recording tape  live from the dispatch centers. Every word is recorded for a period of time. It was not "commercial" tape that was made available to the public. Some parts have since been released after the investigations were over, but at the time we heard them first they were not available to the public.
   I don't know what you mean by "caught." How I worded something might have been clearer, but there is nothing I need to worry about being "caught" doing. I didn't lie. There was such a program. If I'd known I was going to be under a microscope I'd have been more careful of how I worded what I said. I know I didn't use his name in relation to the show. What difference does it make? It was a program. " He " was indeed an architect with the firm, one of several. Besides the firm was called "Yamasaki and Associates, "not the Yamasaki Company. Who knows which one of them did what? It was a huge project. I'm sure THEY do, but at this point at our level of interest, what difference does it make? As far as not naming sources...not public means just that, not public. Why would I name sources? A few things came from FDNY,(proprietary) a few from NYPD and others from other sources including Lou Angeli.  He'll have another show coming out later this year and recently had one on.
You sure must be having a good time trying to discredit me. Do you have that much time on your hands? According to that article on truthers that would be typical.  Did you read it? Keep in mind I didn't author it. You guys post all kind of tapes and blogs and reports, some that could be seen as very controversial, and that's never questioned, but when I posted something, wow, everything blew up and the anger was flying. What happened to MY freedom of speech?  Constitutional protection stops at my door? But if you consider us worthless I guess we don't rate that either. HA!
  I'd never fault someone for looking for answers when there are legitimate questions, but disregarding accepted information and denying consistent facts from many, many witnesses, and sources, or not accepting anything until it is manipulated to fit what one already believes or poking around until one finds one other person who believes as they do does not a conspiracy make.
  Is George Bush and his Gov't going to be charged with thousands of murders? If the evidence is so substantial why not? When? There must be at least one lawyer who believes as you (plural) do and wants to make a name for himself. If it's all as obvious as you say, what are they waiting for?  and it has nothing to do with me. Whew, I've got to get off here before someone thinks I've written as much as Red or WARPH.

[Patriot]

I don't know what more I can say, so I won't.

Now "it all about me" will be very busy for a few days so I'll probably stay off here. I've got food bank collections to deliver, the rest of the kid's Christmas party things to organize,(which is pain since our sound system blew) We just put a Toys for Tots box by the fire station tree so I'll be donating to that. Tomorrow night is the start of Newark Winter Fest and the annual reindeer run which benefits the Special Olympics.They register and start at our fire house so I'll be helping at registration. Then we light City Christmas tree and have hot chocolate, roasted chestnuts and Christmas carols, and shiver. Grin I'll be helping Santa get dressed before he leads the run down the street on Ol' Bessie, our 1926 Seagraves pumper. Saturday night is our firehouse Christmas banquet and dance. Monday is Bingo night once again and I'll sell games for that again.  Next week I need to go to a couple of schools to make a fuss over three fire prevention winners who were unable to come to us to get their awards. Then I need  to count up all  the fire prevention programs and count about how many people I contacted this year for our end of year tally.  But...It's all about me.

But enough from me or I'll get yelled at for posting"too much,"not that others don't post much longer pieces than I do. Wink Have beautiful winter weekend and I do mean that seriously.

Whew, I've got to get off here before someone thinks I've written as much as Red or WARPH. Wink

And the check's in the mail!  LOL

[Varmit]

My source says two F15  National Guard fighters from Otis scrambled....  Why is this different? I told you why in great detail! I saw the photos, heard from the people who were there, listened to the dispatches.  Live, not on tape.

Diane, I don't have to discredit you, you discredit yourself.  You post one thing and then say that you meant another.  But....whatever.

I think the worst thing is the arguments you (pluaral) use.  The firefighters had to be in on it, vicitims families had to be in on it, if Bush did it why not arrest him, etc.  Ya'll fail to see that it is bigger than Bush.  That the families wouldn't have to be in on it, they'd just have to buy the official story, same with the fire departments.  9/11 was a scheme cooked up to to not only invade iraq but to put into place a system that would allow the gov't virtually unchecked power, a basically unlimited "defense" budget, and to drag this country into a war that it cannot and will not win.  Think about it, ten years we've been fighting and are we any safer??...No. We simply have less freedom.  Of course, ya'll won't believe that.  Because you simply fail to look at and see the evidence as a whole.  You actually believe that our gov't is only looking out for our best interest.  Which if you look at history is ludicrious.  You fail to see the connections. 

[Patriot]

9/11 was a scheme cooked up to to not only invade iraq but to put into place a system that would allow the gov't virtually unchecked power...

You've hit the nail on the head, Varmit.

Therein lies the most treacherous motive... unchecked power.  The sheeple would say we need the 'security'.  Learn from history, people!  When the people of a nation give up liberty for 'security', they end up with neither. 

The naysayers say there's no proof in re 9/11, etc., but there's plenty of proof on the unchecked power motive:

1.  Explosive budget growth & deficit spending in the last decade.
2.  The morphing of 'Homeland Security' into a multiheaded omnipotent monster (FEMA,TSA, USINS, ICE, Etc.)
3.  Ever increasing boldness in extra-legislative regulation by the Executive branch via EPA, USDA, DOE, FCC, Etc.
4.  Bully passage of legislation taking over some 20% of the US economy by govt. (healthcare)
5.  Massive increases in 'tzardom', unelected decision/regulation makers in the executive branch
6.  An executive branch that end runs not 1, but 2 court orders in order to stop offshore drilling in an already failing economy
7.  An executive determined to leave our southern border insecure, even if that means taking one of the sovereign states to court.
8.  Government injecting itself into the US auto industry with taxpayer money & leaving secured bondholders at the back of the bankruptcy line holding an empty bag.
9.  Ditto for Wall Street bailouts with trillions in borrowed money that the taxpayer must repay.
10. Allowing almost unchecked money printing & treasury bond sales by the Federal Reserve Corporation leading to devaluation of the dollar, making the US the biggest debtor nation on earth & potentially leading to hyperinflation ($25.00 loaf of bread, anybody)
11.  (Go find 10 more...it won't be hard!)

And it goes on & on.  The hard, factual evidence of government growth & expansion into the lives of the citizenry is obvious.  Only an idiot could miss it. To rephrase Billy Clinton, "It's about the power, stupid!"

We can debate 9/11 till hell freezes over, but ignoring the power grabbing by government could well mean we'll be doing our debating in December, in a government managed 'housing' community around a barrel of burning trash.  With the help of the 'all is well' crowds & the 'hate America first lefty' groups, we could be there by December 2011!

Our condition isn't about Democrat/Republican.  It's about the ruling class vs. the people.  It's about POWER!  WAKE UP PEOPLE!