Building doesn't collapse

[Varmit]

"They" killed innocents...."They" marched children across minefields..."They" don't regard human life as much as we do....yeaaah, I'm wondering if anyone fom east Timor would agree with you on that one?

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Asia/GenocideEastTimor_Z.html

Seeing as how it was "We" not "they" that supplied the weapons and funds to Indnesia to use against civilians.  Also, you might want to see what the sanctions placed against iraq did to the iraqi people (1.5 million dead), and remember we were the biggest pusher of the sanctions.  Now, you might say that the sanctions were a product of war, but the bombing of baby food factories sure as hell isn't. Neither is the bombing and destruction of food warehouses and storage facilities or water purification plants.  Those are not military targets and only serve to cripple and harm the civilian population.

[kshillbillys]

Diane, we do not see eye to eye on many issues but you are absolutely right and I am glad you were on here sticking up for the brave men and women, the firefighters and boys in blue. I do get very pissed off about this subject. This is something that I was damn sure old enough to witness and understand, although on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, I was in my truck heading to Tulsa as it happened, listening to my radio, when all the music on every station I could find was gone. What came across the radio was news. At first there was a report of a plane crashing into the WTC and I thought maybe it was foggy, maybe something was wrong with the plane. And no one seemed to know what had happened. And I remembered watching on the history channel of an old plane crashing into the empire state building. And as I listened to them report the news about this and discussing it, they were talking it may have been a hijacking. And then a report comes on there that a 2nd plane has hit the other tower, which left no doubt in anyones minds that it was not a freak accident. By the time I got to Port 33 at Inola, which is east of Tulsa, there was a line of trucks waiting to get dumped. No one was working the probe shack. I walked up there to see what was going on and in there they had drug out an old TV and was watching the news. And this is where it gets interesting. Varmit stated that picures of  the 1st plane flying into the WTC were not released until the following day, and yet it had only been around 3 hours, give or take, and we were all sitting there watching the first plane and then the second plane, fly straight into the WTC.  The skies of Tulsa came to a stand still, there were jets everywhere. There were military jets too. And military helicopters, I don't know why they were there but they were military. I then headed home to be with my family. Now in the future on other posts, can we go back to hating each others' comments? But on this one, we agree. Now i've gotta go wash my mouth out with soap.----Robert

[Diane Amberg]

Yes, I knew I had seen tape of the first jet too, later the same day, but it wasn't worth arguing about that also.There were a number of tourist photos and tapes etc. released the next day. One of the things I have a hard time with, maybe it was just how I was raised, but I remember clearly some events only having a certain amount of information released and much   remained"classified."Sometimes that meant still under investigation sometimes not. Nobody questioned it. Everyone assumed it was for security as was common during WWII. Now if every gritty, nasty, visually disgusting or disturbing photo isn't released to the public, somebody yells conspiracy, what are "they" hiding. Are we really that desensitized? Has TV turned us into a pack of vultures? I wouldn't want the body of my loved one shown that way.  Many know that the FDNY Chaplin, father Mychal Judge died on 911 but how many know or remember how? Yes, there are a few photos but they are not bad, just sad.. As far as your last comment...no comment.

[Varmit]

One more post and I'm done with this. 

For the record, NO ONE is putting down the NYFD, or NYPD, or any of the folks that lost their lives that day.  What we are doing is questioning the bullshit story put out by our gov't and mainstream media.  Both of which have proven themselves to be inept and corrupt.  If asking questions makes me "desensitized" or anti-american or whatever, then I say so be it.  I'd rather know the truth.

[Patriot]

Wow!  Everyone has had much to say.  There are a some things I hope all sides will consider.

The false dichotomy here appears to boil down to a group who staunchly defends their government to a fault and another who questions their government without end.  MRSc2u said the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  Let me suggest that REALITY lies somewhere other than at the extremes.

The outcomes of centuries of history make clear three things:

1.  There are always those in powerful positions who will employ their power for personal, if not evil, ends.  Sometimes with a sincerely held  belief that they are 'doing good.'
2.  If not for less informed and/or deceived masses, the powerful would have nothing over which to wield their powers negatively.
3.  There are always those among the masses who see the errors of the powerful well in advance of the masses themselves.  There is usually a prophet.

Life experience makes clear a fourth & fifth:

4.  There will always be lunatics who see ghosts under every bed they've ever slept in.
5.  There will always be some who believe that 'it can never happen here'.

The world today, including the USA, are not exempt from these realities.  Humans are humans, no matter where they live.  The only real difference in the outcomes of their motivations is in scale & effect.  Aboriginal tribes have much less influence on global issues than do western Europeans.  Congo tribes less than North Americans.

Let me admonish all to hold to reason.

For those who would be hypercritical of our government, remember that America, overall, has produced more wealth & liberty for the individual than any other nation or empire in history.  Yes, a questioning electorate was the final check and balance in the vision of our founders.  Tread carefully!  Know too, that influences outside the halls of government do exist. They, too, have power to wield. Listen carefully to all your words, and beware that you don't give the impression of being lunatics who see ghosts under every bed you've ever slept in.  For in doing so, you may lose the very audience you seek to enjoin.

For those who refuse to consider that our leaders & institutions would deceive the masses, do not believe we are immune to the outcomes & truths of history.  No human (or human run institution) is without flaw and fault.  Remember the well documented cases (as proven by our government's own declassified records) when government has acted in its' own interests and harmed those it was to protect in the process.  It can and has happened here!  Remember well, that the very founding of the institutions you defend were born out of distrust of & revolt against other institutions.  Beware lest you be seen as blind & foolish just as your opponents seem headstrong & unpatriotic.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
 --  Thomas Jefferson

Sadly, humans do not always debate based on fact & logic.  Emotion & emotional attachments too often become the basis of the debate.  This is true of those on all sides of an issue.  Let us adhere to reason & reasonableness on all sides and in all things.

To the logical questioners among you, have compassion.  To the trusting faithful among you, have reason.

To all sides, remember you could be, at least in part, both right and wrong.

[thats MRSc2u]

4.  There will always be lunatics who see ghosts under every bed they've ever slept in.
5.  There will always be some who believe that 'it can never happen here'.

Those are the two to worry about

Maybe the wikileaks guy will release the "smoking gun" in one of his "leaks"........

Myself......I think there are pressing matters to keep an eye on in the PRESENT.........some of THEM could still be stopped or changed.......9-11 can never be any different than it was.

[Diane Amberg]

I understand that nobody is intentionally trying to put down NYFD,but  you are when you don't believe what my friends who were there, live, and were part of what went on with building 6 and 7, and worked the pile for many weeks, off and on, and helped recover bodies, told me and I shared with you. I have a Newark firefighter friend who in his real life is an accountant specializing in turning around failing businesses who would have been in tower one had the whole thing happened just a little later. Shall I tell him you are calling him a liar?  Do I think this kind of thing could happen again? Of course! That's why the fire service takes all the WMD, Incident Command, Local and Foreign Terrorist Training that we do.  over and over and over again. and more is added as new potentials  are discovered. Heck, I've even had Geiger counter and dosimeter training.
As far as "defending the Gov't", leave it to you to put in those terms. We see ourselves as  defending and serving the public no matter who did it. Could it have been? Sure, but it wasn't. Remember the fire service went through every scrap looking for their friends and the bodies of the public. Those deep fires down in the pits burned for many days before the cranes helped pull it apart so it could eventually  be extinguished for good. The Fire Marshals ,who  are experts in arson cases were there too looking for any evidence of any kind. After it was decided that there could be no more survivors, the trucks hauled rubble over to Fresh Kills land fill and everything down to the last scrap was gone over again.They found bones and rings and all sorts of personal effects. As far as the building falling from prewired explosives, I have yet to see any real proof that it happened. NoThermite of any kind was found anywhere, but considering it's made from simple materials I can see where some of the materials separately could easily have been found. Firefighters did go down into the lower levels and the subways as would be a normal assignment to start clearing the public and checking for fire or problems. By radio they did not report anything suspicious or wiring or anything thing else that wasn't normal.There were mistakes made that day but missing explosives wasn't one of them.
 Go find some footage of buildings that were intentionally taken down. Watch exactly how the building falls. Not the same at all. There were some mistakes made that day ,some which changed the NYFD's dispatch procedures. They followed the standard preplan for the towers not realizing the frailty of the building design when hit by much larger planes carrying much more fuel than were around when the buildings were designed back in the 60's. I don't know what more I can say, so I won't. You will believe forever that the firefighters and the Fire Marshals and Police officers and the design engineers, construction workers and crane operators and all the other specialties that were needed there lied and that hurts terribly.So be it.

[Patriot]

Myself......I think there are pressing matters to keep an eye on in the PRESENT.........some of THEM could still be stopped or changed.......9-11 can never be any different than it was.

Couldn't agree more MRSc2u, read my thread regarding a coup. 
I read Diane's last post, and I think, "God knows, I tried.  Oh... is that a violin I hear above the sounds of the crackling fires?"
I think I'll head to one of the vomitoria  now before the crowds start to leave.

[Diane Amberg]

So Patriot, you don't think it could ever happen again, so we're wasting our time with all the training to respond? Interesting. So right now in the here and now we have nothing to worry about...even more interesting.

[Patriot]

So Patriot, you don't think it could ever happen again, so we're wasting our time with all the training to respond? Interesting. So right now in the here and now we have nothing to worry about...even more interesting.

Wrong again, Diane.  I addressed nothing of the kind.  Said nothing about the potential for future disasters nor the training of any emergency responders.  What I addressed was the futility of incessant rumination of emotional defenses/debates on either side of matters about historical events and the self limiting positions people sometimes take.  I addressed the narrow issues to which you and others sometimes limit themselves.  Jeeze, learn to read for context & overall meaning, will ya?  Its' not always about you or your little corner of the globe.

With respect to the 'here and now" there are some current events/issues/decisions of historical magnitude that need to be dealt with in this country.  Issues that could well dwarf first responder's training programs. Issues that go to the very core of our republic's continued viability.  I'm sorry if fire department training programs don't rise to that level of historical importance. 

As to what I 'think'... at the moment, I opine that your world view & reaction to myself & others here seems akin to that of Chicken Little... limited in scope, absent consideration given to viable alternatives, lacking depth & given to overblown expressions of self-importance.