Building doesn't collapse

[Sailmexico]

I've decided to make one more post to this forum.  It has been an interesting look at the public debate from a more personal perspective than I am used to, and frankly it has left me pretty disgusted.

You can continue eternally to debate the multiplicity of details concerning 9/11 and the resulting wars - for truly they would not have been possible without the "pearl harbor effect" of 9/11 - but it boils down to one thing, whoever brought down WTC7 is responsible for 9/11.  You'd have to be pretty naive to believe Osama Bin Laden (trained by the CIA lest anyone forget), and his crew of Islamic extremists were responsible.  Give it up and stop wasting time while the real perps get away with it.

What really disgusts me however, is the way the majority of American's can justify, or deny the need to justify, the continuing slaughter of innocent men women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The only conceivable justification is the "eye for an eye" of some sort of demented revenge for the loss of innocent American lives on 9/11.  So let's examine the facts of that.

IF 9/11 was solely the result of an attack by Muslim extremists they were Saudi Arabian, not Iraqis, or Afghans.  So the connection must be that they are all "rag heads" i.e. Muslims. And the thinking then is that the death of 3,000 innocent Christian Americans must be avenged by the death of innocent Muslims.

What would be a fair exchange in an eye for an eye?  3,000 innocent Muslims?  Would that be enough to sate the American indignant need for justice - or revenge?

Well, in Iraq alone, as of 2006, the estimated number of innocent deaths, according to the Lancet, one of the oldest scientific medical journals in the world, in the second of two peer reviewed reports, was 654,965.  Four years later I'm certain the number is much higher.

That would mean that for each eye America lost on 9/11 it has taken over 200,000 in return.  I think even Moses would have considered that excessive.

What difference does it make whether we entered the war because of the threat of WMDs, or for oil, or to control the middle east on behalf of Israel, or to rid the world of Saddam Hussein, any other reason.  The fact is America has a lot of innocent blood on its hands.  Too much blood for a so called Christian nation.  Too much blood for people who consider themselves to be the purveyors of peace and freedom to the rest of the world.

If you are not ashamed of America, then I am ashamed of you.  I find it utterly disgusting.

[srkruzich]

That would mean that for each eye America lost on 9/11 it has taken over 200,000 in return.  I think even Moses would have considered that excessive.

It was not moses who said an eye for an eye.  Try Hammurabi He wrote that law long before Moses came along, and that law was not a law that exacted an eye for an eye. It was a limitation law which limited an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  Which ment you could not ask for their head if you just lost an eye....

The fact is America has a lot of innocent blood on its hands.  Too much blood for a so called Christian nation.  Too much blood for people who consider themselves to be the purveyors of peace and freedom to the rest of the world.

If you are not ashamed of America, then I am ashamed of you.  I find it utterly disgusting.

IF your so ashamed of America, why are you here?  Go somewhere you can be proud of.   Goodbye, don't let the doorknob embed itself in your ass as you leave.

[thats MRSc2u]

I've been reading..........I find interesting posts on both sides.

[Sailmexico]

OMG you are correct comrade srkruzich!!  How could I show disrespect for the motherland?  I promise I will never again look at the facts, or criticize Amerika, the homeland.  Please please let me stay in our wonderful country.

[thats MRSc2u]

I am literally amazed by the amount of posts in this thread.........I read it when it started and thought this wont get any response but then it took off like a house afire!

I think 9-11 happened not because of any government conspiracy as such but as a result of the ungodly amount of arrogance HELD by that government...That nobody would DARE do such a thing here......

Jesse Ventura?? Are you guys serious?? I watched that show out of curiosity when it first came on.....much ado about nothing was my conclusion.....takes a little bit of info.....talks to a couple of "conspiracy experts" and leaves a WHOLE LOT up to the imagination of the viewer....which means if you see the boogeyman he's gonna be there.

The Truth is ALWAYS somewhere in the middle

[Sailmexico]

The truth is always somewhere in the middle?  Like... "Who is the father of your child Mary?"  "Ahhhh... they both got me pregnant?" 

What is the answer to the question who imploded WTC7? 

The truth is in the middle? 

The truth is WTC7 was never hit by an airplane. 

The truth is it fell in 6.5 seconds. 

The truth is even NIST's lead technical investigator, Shyam Sunder, stated in the WTC 7 technical briefing that free fall could only happen when an object "has no structural components below it."[ii] The only way for a building to have no structural components below it is to remove the lower structural components with an external force such as explosives.  If the upper part of a building is crushing its lower structural components, in other words, doing the work of removing them, not all of its energy will be converted into motion and its descent will not be free fall. 

The truth is NIST in its final report issued in November 2008 did finally acknowledge that Building 7 descended at free fall.  According to NIST, "This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories, or 32.0 meters (105 ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s [a period of 2.25 seconds]."[v] However, NIST did not attempt to explain how Building 7's free fall descent could have occurred.

This is a tacit admission by NIST that World Trade Center #7 was demolished using external force, such as explosives.

This is not debatable.  It is a the truth. 

WTC7 is the "white crow".

One man argues that all crows are black.  A man says, "I'm sorry but you are wrong about that."; and he produces a white crow to prove that all crows are not black.  Is the truth somewhere in the middle?  Either all crows are black or they are not. 

Either Muslim student pilot highjackers brought down the three World Trade Center buildings... or they did not!  If they did not, then who did?  That is the question, and it deserves a REAL investigation.  Not a bogus governmental cover up.

All truth is NOT somewhere in the middle.

[Sailmexico]

If you want to know about someone, look at their history.

If a person is on trial for murder and the prosecution presents to the jury a copy of a prior plan for a different murder written by the accused; would it be meaningful?

Would the prior murder plan of the accused still be meaningful even though it was never carried out?  Probably.

Why would it matter?  Because it would indicate to the jury that the man was capable of murder, or at least the contemplation of it.

Operation Northwoods was a covert plan of the U.S. government in the 60's for a false flag operation intended to encourage the support of Americans for a war with Cuba. It involved the sacrifice of innocent American citizens.

Was it a serious plan? Well the plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted and the proposals included in the plan were never executed.

This is an excerpt from section 8 of the plan:
 
a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

The drone was to be flown over Cuban airspace and shot down.  The shootdown was to be blamed on the Cuban government.  Sound familiar?

The CIA and FBI have been creating fake identities for years.  The FBI/CIA are busy now creating fictitious identities that they will need 30 years from now, complete with totally made up backgrounds right down to pictures in high school year books.

The families of the victims of 9/11, so many of whom are demanding a real investigation, are all members of the families of those who died in the buildings... not the airplanes.  Oddly the families of the passengers have been totally silent.  Not a peep out of them.

Perhaps there were no passengers.  Perhaps they were - to quote from Operation Northwoods "carefully prepared aliases". 

You think it sounds absurd?  Well so does Operation Northwoods.  But Operation Northwoods is a fact of history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Knowing our government is capable of such a thing should make us more wary, and more demanding of a real investigation.  Why is there such resistance to an investigation if there is nothing to hide?

[Diane Amberg]

Mr Sail. Nobody in the fire service ever said Building 7 was hit by a plane. It was heavily damaged by debris from the outer columns and skeleton of the towers when they fell.  A many story gouge was taken out on one side and it became very unstable after a period of time. One of the main supporting columns was severely damaged. It started creaking and groaning and the fire fighters who were still in it fighting the fires and nearby looking for survivors were eventually pulled back. A safety zone for collapse, as is commonly done, had been established. Because the building didn't look quite vertical, they set up equipment to make sure if it lost any more vertical they would know. It didn't "implode", it collapsed.There are plenty of photos if you just look for them.
Keep in mind nobody knew for sure that the incident was over. They didn't know if anything else, more air attacks, subway bombing, bridge bombing were yet to come. Remember seeing the pictures of the thousands of people walking across the bridges going home? And the boats, ferries, etc. picking up people to get them away from lower Manhattan? People were very worried that there might be secondary attacks. Even an old out of service antique fire boat was put back in service again in a hurry.
 Keep in mind NYFD had been devastated. Officers and entire companies had been wiped out and the remaining fire fighters wouldn't leave the pile.  Fire companies from all over the country, especially here on the east coast, went to help and were used. That included a number of my people who went up that day, stayed for several days, came home and then went back.  A few had friends and relatives to stay with and were given leave from work to help. Over and over that happened for many months. My guys were right there, on the pile, when much of the secondary stuff happened. Now building 6, with only a few floors, was also deemed to be becoming unstable.They decided to take it down too. Explosives, as with Building 7 were considered, but the city decided not to risk any more lives setting the charges so they cabled and pulled it down using construction cranes. Why didn't your "sources" know that? Where are all these people demanding investigations? Except for some first responder health issues, to my knowledge the lawyers long ago settled  all the insurance claims, including people who "died' elsewhere and weren't even there!
 Now, as far as the killing of innocent people? That cuts both ways. War always takes innocent lives, its a terrible thing .But we are talking about terrorists! "They" have killed hostages for many years."They'' ran children across mine fields to clear them during the Iraq/ Iran war. As a culture "they'' treat women very poorly, or are allowed to. People here aren't going to take that lightly. They just don't seem to hold life in as high regard as we think we do. I know some very nice Muslims who came here to get away from all that and as professionals and academics they do well here. I feel very badly for them. Many of them back home can't rise up against the terrorists because they are scared to death. Many of the people live in poverty and terrorism, or the appearance of it pays very well. Families are promised huge improvements in their lifestyles.  Widows are promised life long care. I do hope we can get out of there soon. By the way ,your Northwoods post has already been posted before. The salient point being...it didn't happen! It wasn't accepted. We are always going to have and need spies! We need to have something going for us, not just the enemy

[thats MRSc2u]

  Dont bite ME sailmexico.........I generally keep my thoughts about what the government may or may not be guilty of to myself. I keep my own counsel on such things.
  I've already read all your posts...all varmits posts and alll Dianes posts.....so stand down soldier.

[Diane Amberg]

Diane sincerely hopes she is finished!    I think I am and then someones comes out with something and I just feel I have to comment. As years go by it is easier and easier for the conspiracy folks to find followers. Memories do fade when the only information people ever had was what they saw on TV or read in the papers. It's easy to for someone who has an axe to grind to create people who don't exist and never did and to have people who weren't ever there talk about things that never happened, especially if there is money involved. The people of New York are tough. Life goes on.
Now, the PA plane is something else. There is some possibility that it might  have been shot down by scrambled jets, but that would be classified if it were true. There are also other explanations that are also plausible, including the existing story as released.