MLK and the road of dependency and socialism

[Diane Amberg]

Gee Red, I don't get your point. Couldn't you say it at least 3 or 4 more times?  After more than 100 years most kids see "Lincoln's War" as very long ago and having little to do with now.... except for the neat uniforms the reenactment folks have.
Yes, I can just see a little black kid being told he was lied to and saying "What, you mean my great great grandfather WASN"T a slave?" At this point the whole Civil war could be dropped out of the history books all together and I'm not sure many would be upset.  Read about it on the internet and decide for yourself. Right now we are at war, the economy, although improving, is still bad. Our Gulf is in trouble,11 people died. Our Tri State Bird Rescue is there helping many teams clean oiled birds. The Civil War isn't very high on most people's menus right now.   By the way, is there a reason not one word about the accident in the Gulf of Mexico has been mentioned on here? If the Gulf Stream picks it up it could come almost to us. It's a terrible thing but very interesting to watch and learn about.

[redcliffsw]

Diane, you've a strange imagination regarding black folks (and white folks too).
It's an old liberal trait that's difficult to let go.

What's wrong with a black knowing that his ancestor was a slave?  It sounds like you
want blacks to feel bad about themselves.  I suggest that you start at the beginning
and re-read Elizabeth Wright's column so that you'll understand.  Let me know when you
decide to support the abolishment of the MLK holiday.

[larryJ]

I can remember a trip from Colorado to Hattiesburg, Mississippi, when I was a teen.  We stopped at a gas station and were surrounded by about six young black men pumping the gas, checking the oil, tires, etc.  I was also employed as a gas station attendant and was making $1 an hour.  I asked them how much they were making and they said 10 cents and hour.  How truthful they were, I don't know.  After getting gas, we pulled into a restaurant.  There was a white entrance and a colored entrance.  We almost sat in the colored area not knowing what it was.  The waitress rescued us and pointed us in the right direction.  There were restrooms for the white folk and an outhouse in the back for the colored.  White waitresses served the whites and black waitresses served the blacks.  I assume we all got the same food, but I don't know for sure.

Having not really witnessed segregation, I was pretty awed by the whole thing.  But then, while living as a youngster in New Mexico, all the blacks lived north of Main Street and had their own school.  I was just reading a letter from my Aunt Emmaline Leonard about my mother when she was young.  Emmaline mentioned there was a pair of black twin girls in the school in Howard and my mom would link arms with them after school and walk part of the way home with them.  Being a teacher, my mom taught a few black women (adults) how to read at our kitchen table. 

Larryj

[Diane Amberg]

Yes, Larry for better or for worse those are memories much like I had too. I'm sure it wasn't like that everywhere, but I know what I saw. I know I saw places that wouldn't serve blacks at all, but I think they finally got shamed into even if there was seperate seating. I was told once, no proof, that one man was so determined to serve only who he wanted because it was his place that he shut down and moved away rather than serve colored. Supposedly around Richmond somewhere.
  Red, I don't what you are up to, but it won't work. You can call me a liberal all you want and it only proves you don't know me.  Does that make you a very selfish uncaring cold hearted bigot? I hope not. You are the one who says everyone is being lied to about the Civil War, why wouldn't the little kid be lied to about his lineage? It doesn't bother me, I never owned any slaves  nor did my family, so no guilt crosses my plate or has to be justified.  Frankly, I can't say I care much about what you think of me. You try to insult me and stick it to me whenever you can, but it doesn't matter to me. I grew up with poor, comfortable, and wealthy lower, middle and upper middle class blacks and whites  who valued their education and are now retiring to good pensions. Imagination has nothing to do with it.  Why are you so seeming obsessed with the Civil War anyway? A hobby? reenactment group? Bored with life?  Some day will you ever come to terms with the fact that however it happened, the South lost? And the winner gets to write the history. Everybody who goes to war intends to win and will do whatever is necessary, and certainly sometimes unnecessary, to make that happen!
As far as the MLK holiday, it's not my holiday but why would I take issue with it? Around here its a "do good for the community day." Lots of painting, home repairs for shut ins and that kind of thing. How is that a bad thing ?

[Varmit]

Gee Red, I don't get your point. Couldn't you say it at least 3 or 4 more times?  After more than 100 years most kids see "Lincoln's War" as very long ago and having little to do with now.... except for the neat uniforms the reenactment folks have.
Yes, I can just see a little black kid being told he was lied to and saying "What, you mean my great great grandfather WASN"T a slave?" At this point the whole Civil war could be dropped out of the history books all together and I'm not sure many would be upset.  Read about it on the internet and decide for yourself.

And thats the problem right there, Diane.  Thanks to our education system and its progressive way of thinking and teaching, kids these days have no idea about the true history of this country. 

Right now we are at war, the economy, although improving, is still bad. Our Gulf is in trouble,11 people died. Our Tri State Bird Rescue is there helping many teams clean oiled birds. The Civil War isn't very high on most people's menus right now.   By the way, is there a reason not one word about the accident in the Gulf of Mexico has been mentioned on here? If the Gulf Stream picks it up it could come almost to us. It's a terrible thing but very interesting to watch and learn about.

As for the economy improving, no its not.  If it were our dollar would be going up, gold would be going down, people would be finding more permanent jobs not just temporary gov't jobs, and the market would be showing a steady increase.  Compare the market trends of right before the great depression with today, they are pretty much the same.  As for the oil spill goes, my question is why hasn't gas gone up?  I mean, we are at war, there is threat of even more war in the middle east, forcasters are predicting a more active hurricane season, and its the start of the summer season, and  theres the oil spill.  Usually even one of those is enough to cause a rise in gas prices, now we have all of them together gas should be through the roof. 

[srkruzich]

Why are you so seeming obsessed with the Civil War anyway? A hobby? reenactment group? Bored with life?  Some day will you ever come to terms with the fact that however it happened, the South lost? And the winner gets to write the history.

That mentality of the winner gets to write history is gone now.  WIth the internet and the truth being brought out in journals that were kept durin gthe civil war, the truth is coming out, and the official "history" is being proven false.

[Diane Amberg]

I have no doubt there is a lot to tell on the south's side .It's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between "truth,"as is told in family stories handed down through the generations and "facts" which may or may not be the same. Have some of that in my own family. It just puzzles me that the same folks who seem to have no interest in D-Day yesterday, that affected almost all of us, are still ready to do battle again over the Civil War. We say, yes, it's so long ago interest wains, memories fade. The people are long gone. If you think any high schools of any kind are suddenly going to starting teaching long involved units about the Civil war from any perspective, north or south, I think you'd be wrong. IMHO. TV shows from a different perspective sure, why not. More museums from the south's perspective, go for it. College courses about it, why not. We don't see high schools teaching long involved units about the Holocaust either. It wiped out many relatives of families of Jews still living here in this country today.
   As far as another zing at our education system, how long would you have the kid's day be to double or triple the history taught in any given year?  Do really think private schools teach that much more history? I'd have to ask, but I doubt it.
There are parents who are just as demanding about their child's math, sciences, reading, languages, literature etc. who don't put history nearly as high on their priorities for their kids. I'm sure you can figure out why. Just like some history majors in college find out ,ya learned a lot of really interesting stuff, but what are you going to do with it? And considering what classes now cost per credit hour, one does not take that lightly!  
  As far as kids today nor knowing very much history, I agree. They did have it in school, learned enough to get through the course and promptly forgot it. THEY DON'T CARE! Most, not all of course are only interested in what seems relevant to them at the time. Later yes, especially when they travel and get to see things first hand. I suspect most on here like history more now than they did in school  I've said it and will keep saying it, history text books should be written by historians, not politicians or anyone with a personal agenda.
If Warph wrote a book I'd have to delete most of it due to the nasty name calling and generalizing! I'd say the same for Varmit but he's still too young.
   So what would you like to see taught that isn't? Specifics please. What grade? How long? Who should teach it?  Role play? Individual research? What would you have as a culminating exercise? What kind of test or evaluation? Field trip? Visitor to school? If some parents object what would you do?

[srkruzich]

I have no doubt there is a lot to tell on the south's side .It's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between "truth,"as is told in family stories handed down through the generations and "facts" which may or may not be the same. Have some of that in my own family. It just puzzles me that the same folks who seem to have no interest in D-Day yesterday, that affected almost all of us, are still ready to do battle again over the Civil War.

Because D-day was a war we shouldn't have been in. We were forced into that war.  We were told it would be good for the economy.   You really think that it was a big surprise to the president at that time that japan bombed the ships with their planes?  Think again.  It was allowed to justify bringing the us into a war.   9 years earlier Admiral King simulated the same exact attack....
In the Grand Joint Army-Navy Exercises of 1932, Pearl Harbor was "attacked" in a training simulation by 152 planes a half-hour before dawn (on a Sunday). An attack which caught the "defenders" of Pearl Harbor completely by surprise. In 1938, Admiral Ernst King led a carrier-born air strike from the USS Saratoga against Pearl Harbor in another exercise. Again, the "attackers" were successful in achieving total surprise.
Yes i have studied ww2, ww1, too.  But the civil war is the ONLY war we have had that was over our constitutional freedoms.  It by far is the most important one we had aside from the revolutionary war.

We say, yes, it's so long ago interest wains, memories fade. The people are long gone. If you think any high schools of any kind are suddenly going to starting teaching long involved units about the Civil war from any perspective, north or south, I think you'd be wrong. IMHO.

I don't expect it, they don't even teach it without chopping out all the politically incorrect information now.  Eventually there will be no history of this country to teach. 

TV shows from a different perspective sure, why not. More museums from the south's perspective, go for it. College courses about it, why not. We don't see high schools teaching long involved units about the Holocaust either. It wiped out many relatives of families of Jews still living here in this country today.

Oh thats another avenue i have seen taught in schools.  Holocaust denial.

As far as another zing at our education system, how long would you have the kid's day be to double or triple the history taught in any given year?  Do really think private schools teach that much more history? I'd have to ask, but I doubt it.

Actually yeah they do.  They go into detail.  I do have to say one thing good about southern schools, they do teach history from the revolution to the war of agression and it is very indepth.  By the time a child graduates, they do know the truth about this country and where we are at in its current state.

There are parents who are just as demanding about their child's math, sciences, reading, languages, literature etc.

Hmm remove languages and make it a elective. Only 1 language is needed in schools and that is english.

who don't put history nearly as high on their priorities for their kids. I'm sure you can figure out why. Just like some history majors in college find out ,ya learned a lot of really interesting stuff, but what are you going to do with it? And considering what classes now cost per credit hour, one does not take that lightly!

well i guess those of us who paid attention in history class won't be surprised when history repeats itself.  We'll know how it happened before it happens.   Like i said a while back, this administration and its political malpractice is exactly what happened in 1856 that led to the states seceding and the war of aggression.
 
Last of all, if we don't teach our children where we as a nation came from, how we got to where we are today, they are doomed.  It cheapens the blood sacrifice that was given for this country.  History doesn't have to be boring.   I can tell you one thing, do a re-enactment in front of a group of kids, they remember every single detail of the event.  Re-enacters are the most accurate and stickler to detail. IF you examine their apparal, it is exact, their weapons are exact including what weapons were used by certain ranks.  Stitching of the clothes are period specific, you will find no more accurate accounting of the events.

i don't care what one teaches, but i do expect that the information being taught to be accurate.
 

[Diane Amberg]

I'd be very interested to know what you Rebels have to say about the "Black Codes" of many different kinds that appeared after the emancipation proclamation, and the Jim Crow laws that followed. I was always puzzled by folks who made sure most Negroes couldn't own land and then made land ownership a necessity to vote. Supposedly the south was giving up it's slaves anyway but then that? None too friendly I'd say.

[srkruzich]

I was always puzzled by folks who made sure most Negroes couldn't own land and then made land ownership a necessity to vote. Supposedly the south was giving up it's slaves anyway but then that? None too friendly I'd say.

First of all, the right to vote required that you be a property owner to begin with.  Our forefathers knew that property owners had a investment in this country.  MOST of the people in this country were property owners in that they ran business's, farmed, ect ect...  Rental properties were not the norm back then.  

The idea is still a valid and wonderful idea.  It ensures that the producers in this country, elect its leaders, and by only allowing property owners the right to vote, they could control taxation.  Unfortunately today too many non property owners can vote, and they have discovered voting can get them largess.  They are nothing but consumers, not producers.  I would say its the number one reason why we are in the financial shape as far as a country can be in.  

Hell we just had the Non producers vote in a tax increase to cover non insured, illegals, and any other consumer/non producer.  

It was never about blacks not being able to vote.  And blacks did own land if they bought it.  Sorry but that lie won't float.  After the civil war, many of the former slaves got an acre or two of land and usually the house they  had lived in prior to the war.  Maybe not the old large plantations, but not all slaves were treated as slaves too.  MOst of the slaves were treated decently, working on small farms and such.   I can't say about the north as their slavery went  on well into the 1880's.

What about jim crow laws? Remember the Klan?  do you really know the true history of the klan? it was never about killing blacks.  It was about running off the slime from the north coming down and raping everything they can get their hands on after the war.  They were successful but then once they were run off, some of the ones in the klan got bored and then decided to run off anything that wasn't white.  So Nathan Bedford Forrest dissolved the klan because of it.  Later on i think around 1900 it was revived as a group that went after blacks.  Its awful funny how this happened after the civil war, but as power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, the ones in power are the ones who were setting up things.  

The jim crow laws were passed in every state. So you can't lay that blame on the south.  It was just as illegal for a white to marry into any other race in michigan as it was in florida, or in Deleware to california.  

BTW the black codes weren't just in the south either. Illinois, mi, and several other northern states passed them too. But to answer your question on the south, after 1866, the north put the south under Military control, and controlled all the elections in the south and during the so called reconstruction. Most of the black codes were passed and enacted in 1860.