Cart-less Authenticity

royal barnes · June 05, 2006, 07:35:15 AM

My question on cart authenticity was answered and I appreciate the responses. Another question!!! If I choose not to bring a cart what are the rules on transport of long guns from a vehicle to the racks that are available at each stage? In SASS the long guns must not break the 170 and the levers or actions must be open. I do not wish to commit a hanging offense before my first stage.

Ottawa Creek Bill · June 05, 2006, 08:00:25 AM

Royal,
Muzzles straight up, actions/levers open.....pistols in holsters...unloaded of course....common sense included...
I think it would be a safe bet that the preceeding procdures will get you there OK.

Bill

Will Ketchum · June 05, 2006, 05:11:58 PM

I tend to carry them with the muzzles down actions open. Thery balance better that way. If you only have to go from the rack to the loading bench and back the muzzle up isn't bad but if you have to go aways it is harder to control the muzzle for me.

Will Ketchum

Sam Perfye · June 05, 2006, 06:57:44 PM

I agree with I Will, from the truck to the first stage, muzzles down, between stages, muzzles up. Been doing it this way for several years and have never been called on a safety violation. The best safety in the world is in the triangle formed by your ears and the top of your hat. Al.

Irish Dave · June 05, 2006, 07:43:46 PM

Shalako wrote:

QuoteI agree with I Will, from the truck to the first stage, muzzles down, between stages, muzzles up.

Me, too. That's he way I usually carry mine.

Ornery Orr · June 06, 2006, 10:06:47 PM

Been taught my whole life to keep muzzles up. I don't care if your going to the truck or the next stage. I was taught this as a youngster and also taught this in hunter safety class. It's no harder to carry them muzzles up than it is muzzles down. If an individual is not mentally capable of controlling their muzzles then maybe they should concentrate harder or find another pastime where safety isn't a factor. If an individual is not physically capable of controlling their muzzles then there is the option of a guncart. MUZZLES UP!!!!! I don't care how long you've been doing it, it's not the correct way and it's not the safe way!

Irish Dave · June 06, 2006, 10:31:24 PM

Well, muzzle up or down, I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone ever being shot with an open action. And that goes without saying, up, down, cart, no cart -- actions open, of course.

Will Ketchum · June 06, 2006, 10:37:43 PM

Quote from: Ornery Orr on June 06, 2006, 10:06:47 PM
Been taught my whole life to keep muzzles up. I don't care if your going to the truck or the next stage. I was taught this as a youngster and also taught this in hunter safety class. It's no harder to carry them muzzles up than it is muzzles down. If an individual is not mentally capable of controlling their muzzles then maybe they should concentrate harder or find another pastime where safety isn't a factor. If an individual is not physically capable of controlling their muzzles then there is the option of a guncart. MUZZLES UP!!!!! I don't care how long you've been doing it, it's not the correct way and it's not the safe way!

I doubt the Marines teach it wrong. I was taught muzzle down and under control. If you trip your gun goes down into the dirt. If you trip Muzzles up it will likely result in someone being swept. I personally don't care how someone carries their guns as long as the muzzle is under control.

If I am using a gun cart I carry the guns muzzle up to and from the cart. Without a cart where you might have to walk a couple hundred yards with your ammo, guns, canteen and equipment I generally have my rifle in a case slung over my shoulder and my shotgun open under my left arm muzzle down.

Will Ketchum

Wymore Wrangler · June 07, 2006, 05:44:18 AM

I've got to agree with Orney Orr on this one, I don't know of anyone that ever planned on having an accident, but I have heard of a few Marines getting fragged and the excuse was I tripped

French Jack · June 07, 2006, 06:13:00 AM

If the action is open, and bothe the chamber and magazine are empty, there is no real difference in safety with the muzzles up or down. Just different possible outcomes if the 'unloaded' firearm is discharged. Muzzles up, if the carrier falls, someone is likely to get swept as the muzzle travels toward the ground. Muzzles down, the muzzle is very likely to get dirt or debris creating a barrel obstruction. Either can be hazardous, just different outcomes.

The main thing is to have the firearm UNLOADED and the ACTION OPEN, and the Muzzle UNDER CONTROL-- whether up or down.
Muzzle control equates with gun control. Try to be aware where others are in relation to you and your firearm at all times.

Ornery Orr · June 07, 2006, 07:26:38 AM

Most famous phrase heard at the scene of a shooting accident: "I thought it was unloaded!"

Ornery Orr · June 07, 2006, 07:30:11 AM

Quote from: Will Ketchum on June 06, 2006, 10:37:43 PM
I doubt the Marines teach it wrong. I was taught muzzle down and under control. If you trip your gun goes down into the dirt. If you trip Muzzles up it will likely result in someone being swept. I personally don't care how someone carries their guns as long as the muzzle is under control.

If I am using a gun cart I carry the guns muzzle up to and from the cart. Without a cart where you might have to walk a couple hundred yards with your ammo, guns, canteen and equipment I generally have my rifle in a case slung over my shoulder and my shotgun open under my left arm muzzle down.

Will Ketchum

The Marines taught me the same way, but I don't believe that going to a CAS shoot or going to war are categorized as being the same type of event.

Lone Gunman · June 07, 2006, 07:42:25 AM

There are several "Axioms of Safety" in our sport that, due to the irrevocable laws of physics, are simply wrong. For instance, people take great care to keep the muzzle of break top revolvers and derringers pointed downrange as they eject and reload. Once the action is open on these firearms the bullet and muzzle cease to be a threat. In the event of an unintended discharge the bullet would lodge harmlessly in the barrel, it is the lighter brass case that would become the projectile, this is an inarguable fact. Yet everyone takes great care to insure that the potential threat (the brass) is pointed directly at either the shooters own head/torso or back into the crowd behind the firing line.

That is a violation, not of the wording, but of the true intention of the 170 degree rule.

I believe SASS has a rule that muzzles must point up when in a guncart. The theory is that if a cart is made so that the muzzles are somewhat horizontal they are sweeping the other shooters. Now, depending on crowd density, those horizontal muzzles will likely be pointed at some body part of someone at sometime. With a vertical guncart the muzzles are pointed at the head/torso of the cart pusher 100% of the time the cart is being pushed. Wouldn't it seem logical that the potential for death would be less with the muzzle pointed at 'some body part some of the time' rather than pointed at the head all of the time?

While I certainly agree it's important to always be aware of where your muzzles are pointed, the most important things are that they are unloaded and the actions are open. With an open action the muzzle is not a threat.

Black River Smith · June 07, 2006, 10:40:54 AM

Someone correct me please, but I thought we also have a rule or guideline that if the gun is in a case or sock that it is safe to carry it with action closed.

That is why I created canvas cases/socks to carry my rifles to the range and between stages if time allows for reinserting.

I was informed about this at my first Nationals.

Is this true and correct still.

Wymore Wrangler · June 07, 2006, 11:12:43 AM

Black River Smith, from the bylaws....

Safety and Procedure Rules for All National, Regional and NCOWS Posse Shoots

1. Treat and respect every firearm as if it were loaded.

7. All long guns will have actions open at all times except on the firing line or when they are in cases.

8. When carrying firearms to loading or unloading tables, muzzles must be in vertical position, pointed straight up.

Will Ketchum · June 07, 2006, 11:37:48 AM

Quote from: Wymore Wrangler on June 07, 2006, 11:12:43 AM
Black River Smith, from the bylaws....

Safety and Procedure Rules for All National, Regional and NCOWS Posse Shoots

1. Treat and respect every firearm as if it were loaded.

7. All long guns will have actions open at all times except on the firing line or when they are in cases.

8. When carrying firearms to loading or unloading tables, muzzles must be in vertical position, pointed straight up.

My procedure exactly. Note number 7 doesn't say anything regarding the muzzle direction. Also Like Lone Gunman said, I would rather be on the muzzle end of a break action gun with it's action open then on the breech end if it were to discharge.

Will Ketchum

royal barnes · June 07, 2006, 11:58:03 AM

MY HEAD HURTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Delmonico · June 07, 2006, 12:32:22 PM

I will add a bit to the problem of breechs pointing in the wrong direction. Back in the 90's I did a little benchrest shooting. There was two incodents of folks being killed over a several year period by cases. Both involved bench guns that had had a mis-fire, when the bolt was opened the round stuck in the chamber. Both involved a cleaning rod and some heavy blows to remove the round. When the round went off the case hit by-standers.

Now bench guns are famous for tight chambers and rounds that fit the chamber tight. Often the bullet is seated slightly into the rifling upon closing the bolt. Add a light fast firing pin strike and you will once in a while end up with a stuck round with a dented primer. If the primer is not a true dud, the primer can be more sensitive to shock setting it off, it is the nature of the beast.

Could such a thing happen in this sport, you decide for yourself.

I know of one bolt action shotgun that had a misfire back in the 60's, when the bolt was opened it fired with the bolt un-locked, the bolt stop on most of those is just a machine screw. It took a lot of stitches to sew up the wound in my uncles right arm.

Not trying to scare anyone, but a misfire can fire in a cartride gun as well as it can in a muzzle-loader, one should wait 30-60 seconds before any mis-fire has the breech opened.

Black River Smith · June 07, 2006, 01:07:49 PM

WW,

Thanks that is what I thought. But since no one had mentioned the cased option I thought I would check or add it.

Del, I never had an accident with a misfire but you are totally correct that once the primer is dented the material is pressurized and therefore even more sensitive to shock ignition. That is why I use a hand primer. So I can feel the pressure/resistance placed on the seated primer.