Shot shell loading

[Pappy Myles]

I'm in the process of converting over to the dark arts and in rapid learning mode.  I have my pistol and rifle loads down. Using DD big lube bullets with SPG. Absolutly perfect and no issues there.

However, I'm having a "challenge in discovery" with my shot shell.  Heres what I have.  TTN 12 guage model 1878 coach gun.  I'm assuming no choke at all.   I have magtech brass.  I was given about a 1/2 case of pryodex RS.  (Yeah I know, not really the real stuff, but its cheep, as in free) I've loaded a square load, using my Lee shot Dipper set at 1 1/8 oz for pryodex RS ( gauged out about 82 grains on my muzzler loader powder charger)  11 gauge Circle fly over powder wad, followed by a grease with bore butter 11 guage  fiber wad from circle fly, 1 1/8 7 1/2 shot, 11 guage over shot card, and a tad of elmers white glue, and polished off by a very slight crimp in an RCBS 12 guage die.  I get a lot of smoke, but was disappointed in that I didnt get the bang I was expecting, the recoil is anemic, and I cant seam to knock over the shot gun knock downs.

Heres what I suspect.  I'm getting a lot of pressure release around the wads, or the pressure is blowing through the wads and scattering the shot, or both.  I havnt had the opportunite to shot pattern it, but I suspect the pattern is something like a big donut.  I've read a lot about using AA wads, but dont want to scrub lots of plastic out of the barrel. and read about making my own shot cups.  I've had recommendations on using less powder, more powder, heavier shot, etc.  So I'm open.....

Any suggestions?

[JimBob]

I'm in the process of converting over to the dark arts and in rapid learning mode.  I have my pistol and rifle loads down. Using DD big lube bullets with SPG. Absolutly perfect and no issues there.

However, I'm having a "challenge in discovery" with my shot shell.  Heres what I have.  TTN 12 guage model 1878 coach gun.  I'm assuming no choke at all.   I have magtech brass.  I was given about a 1/2 case of pryodex RS.  (Yeah I know, not really the real stuff, but its cheep, as in free) I've loaded a square load, using my Lee shot Dipper set at 1 1/8 oz for pryodex RS ( gauged out about 82 grains on my muzzler loader powder charger)  11 gauge Circle fly over powder wad, followed by a grease with bore butter 11 guage  fiber wad from circle fly, 1 1/8 7 1/2 shot, 11 guage over shot card, and a tad of elmers white glue, and polished off by a very slight crimp in an RCBS 12 guage die.  I get a lot of smoke, but was disappointed in that I didnt get the bang I was expecting, the recoil is anemic, and I cant seam to knock over the shot gun knock downs.

Heres what I suspect.  I'm getting a lot of pressure release around the wads, or the pressure is blowing through the wads and scattering the shot, or both.  I havnt had the opportunite to shot pattern it, but I suspect the pattern is something like a big donut.  I've read a lot about using AA wads, but dont want to scrub lots of plastic out of the barrel. and read about making my own shot cups.  I've had recommendations on using less powder, more powder, heavier shot, etc.  So I'm open.....

Any suggestions?

Sounds like you need to increase the pressure when seating the wads

[wildman1]

Try having your powder at about 70 percent of whatever your shot is it will tighten your pattern considerably. If ya want it tighter make yourself paper shot cups. WM

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Try having your powder at about 70 percent of whatever your shot is it will tighten your pattern considerably. If ya want it tighter make yourself paper shot cups. WM

That is volume, of course.  This advice is as old as wingshooting; - and works!

[Pappy Myles]

Yep on the list to try, less powder/ make shot cups.............

Thanks gents

[wildman1]

That is volume, of course.  This advice is as old as wingshooting; - and works!

And this Gentleman is where I got that information. WM

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

This is from THIS THREAD in 2006!

FWIW I found that my old double (cylinder bore choke) patterned very poorly with a square load of BP and shot without a shot cup using Magtech hulls.  Big wide patterns with huge holes.  If you don't want to use a shot cup there are a couple of ways to tighten the pattern.  1) Use a larger shot size or 2) use 1/3 more shot than powder. Either will tighten the pattern somewhat but doing both tightens the pattern the most.  If you want or need a really tight pattern a shot cup is probably needed.

This is from three centuries ago;

http://www.archive.org/stream/pteryplegiaorart00mark#page/n3/mode/2up

[Pony Racer]

I have been shooting brass hulls for a few years now - since about 2004.

I shoot 2 inch brass hulls, 2-1/2 inch brass hulls (both sets Magtechs) and just got my 2-5/8 10 gauge brass hulls from RMC last week

I am loading up 10 gauge for the first time this week and there are some tweaks to the brass hulls depending on whether you are using magtechs or RMC's.

RMC's are turned from solid brass - they are very thick walled.  It is recommended with RMC's that you use same gauge components with the shells - ie over shot & over powder crads as well as the fiber wads.

For the Magtech hulls I highly recommend using at least one gauge size bigger for all components to get a good seal.  I had my Magtechs converted for 209 primers - i know several folks show shoot them with rifle primers with no issues.

I used to use Elmer's but started to have issues in very cold or hot weather with my seals.  Since late 2006 I have used a hot glue gun and I will not look back.  The hot glue gun glue dries within about 30 minutes and retains a rubbery consistency when completely dry - I have never had it fail in cold or hot weather.

I do not use plastic cups - in my newer guns with modern barrels I was able to get plastic out very easy with not much fuss - but with my older guns it took more work - so I only use fiber wads.

Since I shoot mostly antique shotguns - they were all designed for fiber wads.  I shoot a Stevens Riverside (12), a converted Martini-Henry (12), a remington 1883 (10) and a 1901 Winchester (10) - what can I say I am a sucker for antique steel barreled shotguns!

[Buzzard II]

I just read the current Ballistic Products monthly catalog (c115-2012)and they recommend an 11ga maxi nitro card (.125), a 11ga fiber cushion (1/2 inch) and a 10ga overshot card (.030) for the 12ga Magtech brass shell, and use a large pistol primer.  They leave the powder and shot up to you. They also list other gauges of brass shells with respective component sizes.   They also have a new booket "Reloading Brass Shotshells".  Just a heads up-I'm not connected any way with Ballistic Products.  I just buy from them like anyone else.  Most of this info has already been supplied by various other shooters. Good shooting!
Bob   

[Bonnie_blue1861]

I can't add anything to this thread... but it sure is helpful.

I have a old 12 gauge damascus double barrel, with exposed hammers, that I made into a coach gun...so I want to start loading up some BP paper shot shells over this winter.

I already bought one of those old fashion hand roll crimper tools and the hand tool that will squeeze/seat in the primers.

I still have to cut down about 250 once fired 3-3/4" paper hulls, to fit the gun's shorter chambers...then get to loading them up.

[MattNificent]

just getting in to loading some brass shells with pyrodex rs..i plan to just use a shot dipper and do square loads..does anybody know what the grains of pyro would be on a 7/8oz shot dip? 1oz? 1 1/8oz?

thanks...great site btw!

[joec]

just getting in to loading some brass shells with pyrodex rs..i plan to just use a shot dipper and do square loads..does anybody know what the grains of pyro would be on a 7/8oz shot dip? 1oz? 1 1/8oz?

thanks...great site btw!

I'm loading using 1 1/8oz of #8 shot using Magtech 2.5" brass shells with large pistol primers and the Lee 2.2 cc dipper with two scoops of the powder. I've used the same for Pyrodex RS but now using some GOEX on the last batch.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Matt;  I take it that you had read this post in its entirety.

When you are building your load work backwards from your desired shotload.  1  oz. is enough shot for CAS targets, and mv is NOT crucial.  Getting a good pattern is.

Next is to decide on your powder load.  These are the rules of thumb on the international sliding scale;
- measure both shot and powder by volume
- more powder than shot achieves nothing but smoke, flame, and blown patterns
- less powder means tighter patterns in almost all cases, up to about 30% less

If observance of the above tips doesn't get patterns of about 1 foot at CAS distances (about15 yards) try the following;
- try plastic wads, or at least the shot-protector part
- alternatively make heavy paper shot cups coin-wrapper fashion
- make sure the over-powder and over-shot wads fit tightly

You are trying Pyrodex, which is 70% of the weight of blackpowder.  USE VOLUME, when comparing to black.  Hodgdon used to post data for Pyrodex but I couldn't find it. However observing the above should give you manageable & effective loads.

[MattNificent]

so a 7/8oz scoop of powder and a 1oz scoop of shot would be a good starting point?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

so a 7/8oz scoop of powder and a 1oz scoop of shot would be a good starting point?

Thats a very good place to start.  Even a 3/4 oz scoop.   Turn the co-relation around.  Fill your 1 oz shot-scoop with your powder and weigh the powder.  Now you have the freedom to calculate the amount of powder in grains, then find a LEE (or any other scoop;- even a homemade one) scoop to fit.

Experiment with wad columns and pattern test frequently

[MattNificent]

Thats a very good place to start.  Even a 3/4 oz scoop.   Turn the co-relation around.  Fill your 1 oz shot-scoop with your powder and weigh the powder.  now you have the freedom to calculate the amount of powder in grains, then find a LEE (or any other scoop;- even a homemade one) scoop to fit.

Experiment with wad columns and pattern test frequently

ok! thanks for the help!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have suggested that one ounce of shot is enough for CAS and I will stick with that advice especially with the cost of lead.  For hunting, more is sometimes called for.  1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz just seem right for the field.  The basic rules for building a load are as I set them out above within reason.

Don't make your load into a magnum.  You are trying to re-create traditional loads afterall. Another limitation is "The Gunmakers Rule" of limiting the shot load to 1/96th of the guns weight.  For example a 1 oz. load fits a six pound gun and 1 1/4 oz. fits a 7 1/2 lb gun.  More would be safe in modern guns but exceeding this "rule" affects recoil and portability without adding anything to effectiveness.

Think pattern when building a load as it is lead that knocks 'em down, not powder.  When the English gun makers were working with choke boring they experimented with variations in the amount of shot in a given bore.  They concluded that the most even shot distribution occurred when the height of the shot column was equal to the diameter of the bore.  Even patterns meant that there were the absolute minimum of holes in the pattern for the quarry to fly through.  (Excessive powder also meant that patterns became even more uneven.)

This is a SQUARE LOAD. To save us having to sit down and actually measure this, the figure for a true square load in a 12 gauge is 1 1/16 ounce.  The result of these calculations was the English "game gun" of 6 1/4 pounds using a 1 1/16 oz shot load.  Americans generally used more shot resulting in the typical hunting gun weighing 7 1/2 pounds.

Oh!  And one more thing.  Cutting down barrels to make a coach gun leads to several problems.  If you want a coachgun, buy a factory made gun as the factory has taken some steps to counter its limitations.

[harleydavis]

So, I have been shooting BP shotshells for some years now. I have a box full of brass hulls that look very cool in a cartridge belt for reenactments but I have never loaded them. Thinkin it is about time after reading the informative posts here. One stupid question, does one put a roll crimp on the brass hulls? Seems redundant if one uses hot/Elmers glue but maybe not. Thank you.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

So, I have been shooting BP shotshells for some years now. I have a box full of brass hulls that look very cool in a cartridge belt for reenactments but I have never loaded them. Thinkin it is about time after reading the informative posts here. One stupid question, does one put a roll crimp on the brass hulls? Seems redundant if one uses hot/Elmers glue but maybe not. Thank you.

You are correct, Sir!  There is no need to roll-crimp brass shotshells.  A very slight crimp might help insert the shells in tight shell-loops.

[harleydavis]

Question for brass hull users, what are you using for dies? The brass hulls I have are old ones that I bought new 20 years ago and have the shotgun primers. I nearly stuck one in my MEC shotgun press and will not slide into my old SXS as they are. So they need to be sized down. Even if I get the new brass hulls with rifle primers, will they need to be sized down after being fired? Doesnt look like the RCBS dies size them. Is there a die set that will work in my RockChucker? Buffalo Arms lists a set that sounds like they would size but at $191 for the die set, a fellow really needs to be committed to the brass hulls. Or, maybe just committed period!!!