First day at the range with 56-50

Pinkerton Agent · May 20, 2006, 02:06:43 PM

Finally got a sunny day so took the new-to-me Taylor 56-50 to the range. Had loads made up with 35 grains of FFg and equal volume Pyrodex Select. Used some 330 grain bullets from Western Bullet and some that I cast this week using one of Widowmaker's modified Lee moulds. Had bullets sized .513 and .515. The OAL was 1.60

First three shots at 50 yards were in the black and about 3 inch spread. That's about as good as I'm ever going to do with those sights and my eyes. It liked the large sized bullets better. I couldn't tell any difference between the two powders as far as accuracy is concerned.

I had no problems with feeding. The magazine tube remained firmly latched through out the day. The ejection was adequate.

Now the downside. The trigger is going to need some work so I will refer back to the thread on that subject. I'm not too keen on that rear sight so if that replacement I read everybody talking about doesn't distract from the appearance of the rifle I'll probably end up with one of those.

I used Winchester large rifle magnum primers. I think they are two hard as I had some that took two hits to go off. Is that typical with these? I'll try large pistol magnum primers next time. I use them to ignite 85 grains of BP in a Martini Henry so they will spark these small loads.

Overall it shot good and was a lot of fun.

Two Flints · May 20, 2006, 03:32:38 PM

Hi Matt,

I found the following info on Spencer loads at another site and thought the info on primers might be of interest to you. The comments made on the site are by Joe Bilby and others. The site is located at: http://www.civilwarnews.com/living.cfm

I pulled out only that information related to the "Spencer Loading Experiments" as offered by Joe Bilby.

"Custom gun maker Larry Romano of Romano Rifle Works (551 Stewarts Corners Rd., Pennellville, NY 13132, 315-695-2066 1. www.romanorifle.com) has designed his own .56-50 Spencer bullet with one large grease groove. Jeff, a friend of mine in upstate New York, has been experimenting with his Taylor reproduction Spencer and recently worked on a load using the 325 grain Romano bullet.
Jeff cast his .56-50 slugs from a 1:20 tin/lead alloy, lubed with SPG lubricant and sized them to .512. The bullet was loaded in front of 40 grains of Goex Cartridge grade black powder and a .30 vegetable wad with .25 compression in a Bell case trimmed to 1.16 inch, primed with a CCI BR-2 LR primer and lightly crimped. The result was a cartridge with an overall length (critical for function in a repeater) of 1.585. Initial firing resulted in a .3.75 inch group at 50 yards using the carbine's iron sights. Function through the gun's action was fine. Jeff is going to continue load development, experimenting with different primers and powder types — more on this in the future..."

"Correspondent Jeff Williams has provided me with more details on shooting his Taylor & Co. .56-50 Spencer. Although a thunderstorm blew him off the range before he got to shoot more than a few rounds his second time out, Jeff had some general observations worth considering, not only for Spencer shooters, but also for all black powder cartridge shooters.
1. Among his observations are that Goex FFg seems to produce much less barrel fouling than Cartridge Grade black powder in smaller capacity cartridge cases like the .44-40, .45 Colt and .56-50 Spencer. Jeff believes that Cartridge powder performs best in higher-pressure black powder loads such as .45-70 and his favorite .38-56. The fouling he had experienced using Cartridge black powder in the .56-50 was completely eliminated when he replaced it with FFg. After trying both, Jeff also thinks that large rifle primers may not be optimum for the .56-50 cartridge, and that "a CCI Large Pistol Magnum #350 may be a good choice." Hot magnum primers are often preferred for black powder cartridges to guarantee better ignition and more thorough burning of the charge."

Hope this info is of some value to Matt or anyone else who reads this post.

Two Flints

Pinkerton Agent · May 27, 2006, 02:01:46 PM

Today I tried loads with Federal Magnum pistol primers and had much better results. The magnum rifle primers I used last trip to the range were just to hard. OAL of 1.595 fed flawlessly. 35 grains of FFg seems quite mild. I might try a slightly heavier load. It prefers .514 bullets from the Widowmaker mold. The .512's have a POI 4-5" to the right of the .514 bullets.

This coming week the trigger gets attention as the factory trigger is just way to heavy.

Fox Creek Kid · May 28, 2006, 11:25:29 AM

QuoteToday I tried loads with Federal Magnum pistol primers...

I would most heartily recommend that you do NOT do this! Pistol primers are shorter than rifle primers by several thousandths and as a result the fired case will slam the breech face and most likely crater it very quickly. Upon being cratered it may even freeze the fring pin in the forward position and you'll get an AD when you raise the lever. BIG NO NO. This applies if you are using Starline or Bell brass. Only RMC cuts their 56-50 brass for pistol primers. Your light hits are probably due to the two screws holding the slide coming loose. Keep these tight or Loctite them in.

Pinkerton Agent · May 28, 2006, 02:46:45 PM

Fox Creek,

Thanks for the advice. The Winchester LRM primers I was using are indeed harder than the Federal LPM regardless if any screws are loose. The size of the firing pin dent is what I am basing this on (bigger/deeper on the LPM fired cases) and no screws were tightened up between shootings.

When you say the case slams back, do you mean the primer?

Perhaps a LRM primer that is a bit softer (in addition to making sure those screws are tight) will be the long term solution. Is there a concensus as to what brand LRM primers are a bit softer?

Hell-Er High Water · May 28, 2006, 03:17:52 PM

I have used both Winchester Large Rifle (WLR) and Federal Large Rifle Magnum (215) primers in the 56-50 and both will fire on the first hit in my rifle. I use Starline brass now but started by using cases formed from 348 Winchester before the Starline brass was available. In either, both primers work fine for me.

If the firing pin retaining screws are tight, like FCK suggested that you check, remove the breech block assembly and push the firing pin assembly forward several times to try and feel if there is any roughness to it's movement. It may be that there is a little binding as it moves forward and upon disassembly should show up as bright marks where any binding may be. Some of the foreign made guns leave a bit to be desired on the internal finishing and a little work with a stone will sometimes work wonders.

Good shooting.

HHW

Fox Creek Kid · May 28, 2006, 05:29:19 PM

QuoteWhen you say the case slams back, do you mean the primer?

Exactly. As there is a greater distance between the primer face & the breech face as they seat deeper the primer gets a running "headstart" at the breech face. This is very common in revolvers as they have to have greater headspace in order for the cylinder to rotate. If you have a revolver look at the breech face. That is why to this day S&W, Colt & even Ruger use "recoil plates". These are the little discs aorund the breech face & are harder than hell. These can be replaced easily by the factory when need be.

Some people feel that Federal primers are the softest & CCI are the hardest, but there was a test a few years back in American Rifleman which concluded little differance form brand to brand. However, that is not to say that a particular load might not like one brand over another as any handloader can attest to.

mtmarfield · May 29, 2006, 05:41:40 PM

Greetings, All!

This last Sunday, I finally made it up to our mountains for some time with the Spencer Infantry Rifle. To my "cheerful disgust", I had discovered that I had forgotten my target stand... In that spirit, I proceeded to do function tests, and do a little fun-shooting at improvised targets.
Feed and Function with the Lee/DW .50-350 Mould slugs were smooth & reliable, at 1.62" OAL. The Rapine #515320 Mould slugs were equally reliable, at 1.55" OAL; as a matter of fact, they fed so smoothly, that a couple of times I was compelled to ease the action open to make sure that they had actually cycled into the chamber!
GOEX FFg Loads burned clean; I also drilled out the flash-holes of twenty pieces of StarLine 56-50 to .096", a la J.S.Wolf, and with 45gr. FFg over Winchester WLRM caps, I got the heaviest recoil, and cleanest bore. This same load happily blew through a foot of thoroughly soaked phone books, leaving an impressive exit cavity. Sorry, no Chrono data...
Swallowing my pride, I dropped 9.0gr of IMR TrailBoss under the Rapine and Lee/DW slugs; these proved to be very pleasant, with no more than a "Snap!" from the muzzle. I may buy a few more cans... For research purposes, of course.
Observations: The trigger pull is atrocious. The rear sight is equally contemptible. I otherwise find this Rifle to be a new favorite, in spite of its equally logic-numbing/cost cutting 1-26" rifling twist. Before I take it out again, it will go to the gunsmith for "trigger & sights" work-over. In the meantime, I will cast up a few more of the mentioned slugs, maybe others, and water-quench them to raise the hardness level.
Sorry that I don't have targets to share with everyone; when I get the Spencer back from the "Doctor", I'll send actual reloading particulars.

Be Well, All!

Matthew T. Marfield
5-29-06

DJ · May 30, 2006, 05:40:19 PM

I haven't seen any reference to Tony Beck's Spencer online articles in this forum, yet. Lots of Civil War Spencer history plus practical reloading info by somebody who has done a lot of Spencer shooting. You may find this one useful--I know I have.

http://www.awod.com/gallery/probono/cwchas/spencer.html#confuse

--DJ

Arizona Trooper · May 30, 2006, 06:39:25 PM

Thanks for the mention DJ. I'm surprised that those articals are still up. AWOD (aka A World of Difference) was a local ISP that went bust a couple years ago. The Spencer articals (and a lot more) are also posted at www.civilwarguns.com

BE CAREFUL WITH PISTOL PRIMERS!!! Not only are they softer, they are a lot more sensitive. If you have a high primer (and I mean even slightly high), the magazine could go off.

A good thing to do on CF Spencers is to harden the face of the breechblock. I do them with an gas welding torch. Strip the block, then set the flame to be acetylene rich (carburizing). Heat the block face red hot and hold it there for 2 to 3 minutes, then quench in oil. Medium red is fine. It doesn't need to be about to melt. Carbon will condense on the block around the edges of the treated area if you have it right. You should have no cratering problem after that.

mtmarfield · May 30, 2006, 09:52:47 PM

Greetings!

DJ, that's an excellent link with lots of information; I immediately printed it out! Thanks Mucho!

Be Well, All!

M.T.Marfield:.
5-30-06

Pinkerton Agent · June 04, 2006, 12:11:30 PM

Got the trigger pull down to 6 pounds and that made a huge difference in the shoot-ability. Today had a seven shot group under 4 inches with POI in the black at 50 yards (standing with support). That is as good as I'm going to do with that rear sight! I tightened up the two screws as suggested and had no problems with ignition. I've got two different bullets to play with and have figured out one likes mild loads and the other likes heavier loads. Got the OAL thing figured out and feeding is smooth. With a bit of emphasis on the downward stroke of the lever it will eject good enough.

There is probably a new rear sight coming in the future but that said I'm happy with the way this has worked out. The Spencer is an interesting gun to shoot.

Two Flints · June 04, 2006, 02:33:37 PM

P.A.,

Would you describe how you lightened your trigger pull? Did you do it? What was done? Please, in some detail if you have the time, thanks!

Two Flints

Pinkerton Agent · June 04, 2006, 04:41:02 PM

Two Flints,

I subscribe to the theory that " a man has to know his limitations". I know mine and when it comes to gunsmithing I learned long ago to let the pros do it. I took it to Clyde Moore of D&D Guns, Clawson Michigan. Clyde is an experienced full time gunsmith and does things right. The trigger is an acceptable 6 pounds now. Certainly not a bench-rest trigger but light years ahead of what it was. Several weeks ago I took him a Martini Henry Mk 1V that had a brutal trigger and Clyde made that a very clean 4 pounds. $40 well spent.

As I mentioned in due time I'll improve the rear sight but for now everything is working well. The next gun in my future could very well be a rifle version.

-Matt