Loading .45 with BP compression question

[litl rooster]

  Mornin' pards,  I've got 2 questions I think maybe related. I was hoping I could be enlighten on. I am not looking for a debate just to see if I am screwing up my loads or not. Since I am new to loading. I also need to save some Dinero where I can.
  First I am loading .45 colts with fffg Goex and a Big Lube bullet. Filling the case to within 1/8 inch of the top and allowing to settle by lightly tapping on bench before setting Bullet. Checking OAL I have bullets running from 1.540 to 1.580  Lee suggest 1.60. Then running each one in the cylinder of my Ruger and turning it till it's back to ejection rod.
  I quess the main question is can a round be over compressed? Reason, I ask, Several of these rounds would not full seat to the cylinder and so they would not allow the gate to close or to turn freely. Much like a high primer would.
Second question, On one round the bullet did not seat, Removing the lead, I decided to dump the powder and re size the case and load again. The powder was hard in the case and caused me to use a fine screwdriver to free it up......This concerns me more than the loads that did not chamber properly .....Or should it?

Before you ask, It's a Lee 3 die set
Starline and Top Brass cases
Win Primer's


Thanks in advance

LR

[Cuts Crooked]

I guess it depends on what your concern is. If you are concerned that you will blow up your Rugers with that load, you needn't be. They will handle all the pressure you possibly get out of a black powder round and still chamber it.

If you are concerned that you are over compressing the powder and changing burn characteristics, you are correct. To some minor extent any amount of compression changes the burn rate of any black powder. This is a good thing, as long as it is consistant and reasonable. But too much compression can do bad things to accuracy. Too much compression will crush the the powder grains, making some of the 3F in those cartridges into compacted dust. Ergo first it breaks the grains, then it mashes them into a solid mass. Not good when one is trying to achieve consistant burn rates!

Also, too much compression when seating the bullet can actually deform both the bullet and the brass it's being seated in. I suspect this is what is going on that is causing you to have cartridges that won't chamber. Back off that powder charge a bit, you only need 1/10" compression to get good consistant loads. Most folks don't compress more 1/8" in pistol cartridges and it works great for them.

[Dick Dastardly]

There's not much to add to what Cuts already said.  I've heard of a few odd pieces of 45 Colt brass that are slightly different in the base.  They need a different shell holder to load.  Check yer brass and see if those that hang up are all the same brand.  If that's what's happening, separate out that brass and load it separate from your other brass.  You may find that it holds slightly less powder.

I love the way the big 45s buck, snort, smoke and roar with a good strong load.  Don't worry, you won't hurt the targets any.  If they're made out of cheep stuff they deserve to get hurt.

DD-DLoS

[litl rooster]

  Cuts and DD
  Thanks for the replies.... I loaded 5 rounds earlier yesterday and shot them, They were awsome, lots of smoke and those Sheriff model Vaguero's look and sound alot bigger.
I guess I was suspecting I was over compressing the bullet. Reason for the casing not to seat in the cylinder. BTW it was both types of brass. My other concern was the ignition of the powder being that compressed. Not so much damage to the gun. The 5 I shot yesterday hit on the target so I felt confident there. As near as I can figure I am loading 32 grains of this fffg.

Again thanks, this eases my mind.

LR

[Arcey]

Sumthin' else ya may wanna look at, Rooster, if the cartridges ain't chamberin' look at 'em right at the crimp.  With sum of the three dies sets, if ya try ta crimp 'em heavy they'll bulge there – won't have anything ta do with the powder charge or compression.

The birdshead I have is really tight on a couple chambers.  If I do a 'seat 'n crimp' in one stroke some of 'em won't chamber.  Crimp the same cartridge with a factory crimp die it falls right in.  Rotation check at the loadin' table is spot on.

[john boy]

Rooster, I believe you have One Issue and One Concern:
Issue:  You OAL for the reloads are running way out of specifications.  The 1.60 OAL is the SAAMI Maximum.  Some firearms will chamber rounds at this length.  First, clean your seating die and then adjust it so the bullet seats to a OAL between 1.595 and 1.590. They will chamber properly in any firearm.  If you OAL varies as you say ... you have an issue with you seating die or you are not fully stroking down when you seat the bullet

Concern:  Black powder can be compressed anywhere between 0.1 to 0.6" with no adverse effect.  When BP is compressed deep using the bullet to compress it, the powder will break up into 'fines'.  When it is settled and compressed with a compression die, the granules don't break into fines.

When BP is compressed, it's a hard cake and to break it up with a screwdriver is normal 

[litl rooster]

Arcey John Boy thank you....John Boy I cleaned the dies tonight. Will reset them tomorrow and start loading again. I shot about 15 rounds of the ones I have made up.(Thunderstorm blew in) Shooting at a 10 x 16 steel plate(which the weld held another story) Placed out at 35 yards. All I can say is with a SMILE is,

WOW

all but one hit it's mark

[Grapeshot]

Not to be disrepectful, but I've taken apart a couple of 19th Century Blackpowder rounds and found that the powder was compacted into a solid mass.  Also, research into the types of primers shows that they were weaker than the ones we have today, but burned LONGER.

Using either CCI or Federal Large Magnum Pistol Primers, I have compacted BP in a Schofield case after dropping a 2.2 cc dipper full of 2Fg, deep enough to stick an RCBS cast .45 250 RN bullet deep enough to crimp over the first driving band.

Plent of BOOM and recoil for any warthog to appreciate.

[Cuts Crooked]

Not to be disrepectful, but I've taken apart a couple of 19th Century Blackpowder rounds and found that the powder was compacted into a solid mass. 

That ain't bein' disrespectful pard, that's just tellin' what ya know! I too have taken old cartridges apart and found the powder in a solid mass. I suspect that even with light compression, over time, it will solidify whilst jist setting around. I've also found less than stellar accuracy outta some old ammo from the late 1800s. If you listen to some folks you'd think that the ammo they made back then was the best thing ever made. That ain't been my experiance though. Of course, I have no way of know provenance of the old rounds I've shot, ergo I have no way of knowing how it was stored during it's lifetime or what it was exposed too.

[litl rooster]

 Again to all thank you. I cleaned the dies last evening and have reset them this evening. I run 12 rounds thru and they are running more consistant about 1.589 need to tweak it again. All but one chambered without a problem. I believe one of my problems was my die (lock ring) was backing off causing the seating die to move. The manual sez, finger tight, I put a wrench to it tonight just a snug. I would like to pick up speed in loading but I want them right first.

  Shooting One True Powder makes Cowboy shootin' just that much better.

thanks
lr

[Driftwood Johnson]

Looks like you're on your way.

Here's a couple of points to consider. I've loaded 45 Colt and 44-40 cartridges with BP with several different amounts of compression. From zero compression, with the base of the bullet just contacting the powder, all the way to about 1/4" of compression. I don't own a chronograph, so I don't have much in the way of sophisticated data on these loads. They all have shot well, they all go boom, make lots of smoke, and usually hit where they are pointed. More sophisticated data than that I don't have. For convenience sake alone, I generally try to put enough powder in the case such that when the bullet is seated, it compresses the powder by around 1/16"-1/8". This seems to work well and is an easy standard to meet.

When I have dissected my own loads, for whatever reason, I have found that the powder directly under the bullet is usually compressed into a cake and needs to be picked out with a sharp instrument. However, once the layer of compressed powder is broken through, the remainder pours out of the case unimpeded. In other words, my experience with my own loads is that the powder is stratified into a dense pack for about 1/8" or so under the bullet, and the rest remains relatively uncompressed. I've dissected quite a few of my loads, for various reasons, and that has usually been the case.

It is entirely possible that too much powder jammed into a case can actually force the bullet out again a little bit. This can contribute to uneven overall lengths. You mentioned a spread of about .040 in OAL and that is a very big spread. Your spread should be more down around .005 or maybe .010, if you have everything set up right. One thing that can contribute to bullets being unevenly seated is compressing too much AND seating and crimping in 2 separate steps. If one crams so much powder in there that there is back pressure attempting to force the bullet out again, during the time it takes between the bullet seating step, and the bullet crimping step, if there is enough pressure, the bullet may try to back out again while it is only held in place with neck tension and before it is mechanically locked in place by crimping. This can even happen on a progressive press, where one crimps immidiately after seating. A friend of mine was trying a new load of 45 Colt on his Dillon machine. He had added a big lube wad and some cardboard wads inside without compensating for the extra volume by reducing his powder charge at all. He was using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, so he was seating his bullets at one station, and crimping at the next station. He made the mistake of loading up 500 rounds like this without checking them for feed in his '73. They fired fine in his revolvers, but he was having problems with jams in his '73 because of the inconsistant OAL. He wound up pulling most of those 500 bullets.

Overcompressing can even affect the shape of a crimp, even if one seats and crimps in one step. Something about trying to stuff 10 pounds of something into a 5 pound bag.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Drifty;   Do you use a drop tube for .45LC & .44-40?  I've found that some of my loads, when dismantled, have the powder caked throughout.  For pistol calibers, I use a drop tube and only compress the bullet in a bit.  For close work it seems to do the trick as you suggest.

[Driftwood Johnson]

No, for CAS loads, I do not use a drop tube. I used to dip my powder with Lee dippers, pouring the powder directly into a funnel placed onto the mouth of the case. These days I have a Lyman BP powder measure mounted on my progressive machine. It drops powder directly into the cases. I don't find a drop tube to be necessary for CAS loads. It is true you will get a little bit more powder into a case using a drop tube, because the powder packs better, but I get plenty of powder into my cases anyway. It is also probably true that accuracy is better with a drop tube, but in the compromise between the need for lots of ammo and accuracy, I don't use a drop tube for CAS.

For long my long range Sharps 45-70 loads, I do use a drop tube. I load all my 45-70 on my old single stage press and take the extra time to use the drop tube.

[Cyrille]

I have a question, just to satisfy my couriosty I never intend to use 4F in any of my guns O.S. Ruger Vaqueros or my Walker[when I get it.] or my .45 caliber rifles Henry or Winchester. but is it safe to shoot the Holy Black in 4F from an old style Ruger .45 caliber? As I stated above I have no intention of doing so just courious.

[Capt. Augustus]

4f powder is meant to be used as a priming powder for flintlocks.  I cannot speak for the ROA, but I will guarantee if you use it in a Walker, the life of the pistol will be short.  When I got my first Walker I used 60 grains of 3f as they said I could.  After a couple of cylinders the slot for the wedge stretched and the gun was useless.  Since then I only use 2f or cowboy and limit my charge to 40 grains.  This is powerful enough to reset most counters during a match.

It seems like this is one of several questions lately where it seems folks are either so new at these things or they are fishing for something.  The other that comes to mind is the shooting of proof loads in a 1860 Henry.  Sort of makes a old cowboy wonder....

[Cyrille]

It was just to satisfy my courisoty as stated in my previous post I will not use 4F in any of my firearms, I have shot and hunted with flintlocks in the past and know that is is only to be used for priming and not on the actual load as far as I'm concerned the question is was and always will be just a point of couriosoty. I was not asking about the ROA but of the Vaqueros that were on the market before the new Vaqueros.

[litl rooster]

Thanks Driftwood J..I have considered buying the Lyman measurer (for Black Powder) I think it would make for a more consistant loads and have less waste due to spillage.  Your info has been helpful. I intend on tackling .44WCF after I learn my hand gun load. BTW to all involved here, I am not using dried cereals or wads of any kind in my loads.

Again Thanks
lr

[Driftwood Johnson]

litl rooster

I can recommend the Lyman BP measure, I'm very pleased with it. I can offer a few suggestions on a few things I have learned about it to possibly save you from future headaches.

I have found it simplest to keep the measure set for one load. I have always used the exact same load in both 44-40 and 45 Colt. I always have used a Lee 2.2CC dipper for both and when I was setting up the Lyman measure I kept adjusting until I threw the same amount by weight that a 2.2CC dipper dips out. I agree, using a powder measure will be more repeatable than dipping, because every time one scrapes off a dipper level, the level of the powder in the dipper is never exactly the same. A few grains always dislodge, and it is never the same amount. Filling a confined volume will be more exact. Not that that kind of consistancy is really necessary in CAS loads. But I have found it simplest to simply leave the measure set at one setting than to try and readjust according to the scale on the adjustment mechanism. If I ever start using it for a different cartridge, like maybe 45-70, I will probably buy the parts for the adjustment mechanism and keep them permanently set to a different adustment.

Be sure to completely empty the measure of powder between uses. BP is very hygroscopic and will suck moisture out of the air and cause rust on any metal parts it is in contact with. I also discovered the hard way that it is best to totally remove the metering mechanism from the measure between uses and leave it on the bench. I found out the hard way that even after emptying the powder from the measure, enough fine powder dust remains in the metering mechanism to draw moisture from the air. The brass parts corroded enough to weld themselves to the iron body of the machine. It took a little persuation to get the measure working again. Removing the metering mechanism only invovles one screw. Now I remove the mechanism and thouroghly clean all powder dust off of it between uses. I leave the metering mechanism on the bench next to the press and it only takes one screw to put it back in and the settings have not changed.

[Grapeshot]

 Second question, On one round the bullet did not seat, Removing the lead, I decided to dump the powder and re size the case and load again. The powder was hard in the case and caused me to use a fine screwdriver to free it up......This concerns me more than the loads that did not chamber properly .....Or should it?

Before you ask, It's a Lee 3 die set
Starline and Top Brass cases
Win Primer's


Thanks in advance

LR

Last night I was loading .45 Colt with 29 grains of Goex Cowboy grade Black Powder and a 3/16th inch cork wad.  I use a separate compression die and managed to over compress the charge, put a bulge in the case.  All I did was run that case through the sizing die, without the decapping pin in it and then expand the mouth and bell it.  Made sure that the compression depth was where it was supposed to be for the bullet I was using. 

Shooting it at the range today I didn't have any problems with any of rounds I loaded to practice with.

[litl rooster]

  Grapeshot,
  I loaded up 10 rounds using a homemade Scofield dipper(not sure what it measures out to,with Goex fffg today and seated the 200 gr big lubes. They were lighter(recoil wise) than my first loads but shot very nicely. Was going to post pictures in the Telephone book thread but can't get the chip out of the camera.
I came back to the "cave" and loaded 50 more the same way...See if the wife sleeps in tomorrow, I might try them in her Thunderbolt.



I should have my Lyman powder measurer after the holiday.<UPS