45 or 44.40?

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

When it comes down to simple mechanics of the 1860, feeding, etc., is there any advantage of one caliber over the other? 

[Driftwood Johnson]

It is perhaps arguable to say that the 44-40, being ever so slightly tapered, may be a little bit less prone to jam than the 45 Colt, which has a straight case. However I have not heard of many 45 Colt shooters reporting jams in their toggle link guns. For myself, it is a no brainer. I shoot nothing but Black Powder in my CAS rifles, and they are all chambered in 44-40. (Actually 2 of them date from a time when no rifle was chambered in 45 Colt, so there really wasn't a choice with them). My 44-40 cases seal the chamber so well that they eject from my guns looking as clean as smokeless cases and very little BP fouling finds its way back into the action. For the Smokeless shooter, this is not as much of a concern.

I will say that, although the 44-40 cartridge is not difficult to reload, it does require a little bit more care than the 45 Colt. I like to say it is fussy. I can crank 45 Colts through my press like a machine gun. I have to slow down and take a little bit more care with 44-40, because if one happens to seat off center in the shell plate, and it smacks the bottom of the sizing die, it will probably crumple and be ruined. A 45 Colt case would shrug off the same blow. I usually have to pay a little bit more for 44-40 cases than I do for 45 Colt too.

For me the equation is 44-40: Better for BP, slightly slower to load. I shoot 44-40.

I ordered my new Henry in 44-40.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Thanks Guys.  I am on the verge of ordering an 1860.  Think I will go with the .44-40!

[Silver Creek Slim]

You won't regret it.

Slim

[James Hunt]

Might as well throw my 2 cents in, I have heard alot of guy's talk of blow back in the .45 Colt. Since I don't have a .44-40 to compare with the point may be moot, but I have never had a problem with my .45 Henry and excessive BP fouling. I have shot close to 100 rds at a time without any problem. I clean what I can with a toothbrush and either -OH or water with a little windex it it. Once a year usually in the winter, I take the sideplates off, I have never noticed any particular problem with any excessive fouling I didn't get to. I have a .38-40 in an original 73 and although I don't put 100 rds thru it at a time, the internals don't necessarily look any cleaner when cleaning it. I guess this is a long way of saying I haven't had any problems so don't be afraid to get a .45 if it is the only gun marked down 25% or such. Most folks I know get the .44-40 becuase the caliber is a little closer to the original, but hey I can argue that I'm shooting a straight walled cartridge. I have often wondered why they didn't chamber this gun in some sort of .44 Henry centerfire, no market I guess. Get what you want with confidence, I'm not a big fan of Italian guns, by they got the Henry right - that's for sure!

[Capt. Augustus]

Was the original Henry cartridge made with a brass or copper case?  That might explain some of the blowback.  I tried a Schofield cartridge in my Henry and really experienced blowback.  At the present I neck size my .45 brass, this has helped quite a lot.

[Big Hext]

Howdy,

It's kind of a conundrum, ain't it..
Neither cartridge was chambered in the Henry.  So, in a way, it doesn't matter, but the 44-40 is an authentic rifle cartridge from the time, the 45LC is not.  The 44-40 is a better BP cartridge by reputation, but as I have shot more BP and started to pay attention, I see a lot, a whole lot, of guys shooting 45 LC in their rifle with no real problem, myself included.  It does seem to be a bit about the power of the load.

Ultimately, the 44 is a bit more authentic, if that matters.  My criteria would be to not add a new cartridge and complicate my ammunition issues, and then I would look for the best deal.

Adios,

[Silver Creek Slim]

What I have been told to achieve the least amount of blowback with BP and .45 Colt in rifles is: 1) get the thinnest brass available. Starline is about the thickest. 2) The more pressure the better to expand the brass to seal the chamber. No breakfast food or other fillers. If ya feel ya need a filler use more BP.  3) A heavy boolit at least 250 grs. The lighter boolits will produce lower pressure levels.

Slim

[Driftwood Johnson]

The original 44 Henry Flat had a copper, not brass case. In addition, being a rimfire cartridge, the material was thinner than a centerfire cartridge. Because the rim is hollow, and needs to be easily crushed, the material needs to be relatively thin. This is not a concern with a centerfire cartridge and the material is typically thicker than a rimfire case. When you cross section a modern centerfire case, the case wall gets thicker the further you go down from the mouth to the base. Rimfire cases tend to be more uniform in thickness for their entire length.

There was a 44 Henry centerfire cartridge manufactured for a short time, I believe in the transition time at the end of the manufacture of the Winchester Model 1866 if I remember correctly. A few '66s were chambered or it. before the centerfire Modle 1873 came along. But the 44-40 cartridge made it obsolete.

I have an original 44 Henry cartridge at home. I'll take a photo of it and post it along with a few other cartridges for comparison.

[The Yankee Bandit]

This might have nothing to do with nothing, but for what it's worth, here goes:

I only shoot factory loads - I don't reload.  I have noticed that on certain brands of ammo, they must not be crimping their 44-40's enough.  On several occasions on a couple of different rifles, the spring tension in the magazine is enough to push the bullet back into the case.  I have never had this happen with the same type ammo in the same type firearms in .45.

I don't know if the 44-40 is more difficult to crimp tightly because of the thin case or if it was just poor quality control on the ammo makers part.  Perhaps someone can respond to this.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Many times I have heard reloaders say to be sure to use a 'firm crimp' with their 45 Colt and 44-40 reloads. In my experience, it is impossible to get a 'firm crimp' with a 44-40. The brass of a 45 Colt is much heavier at the mouth than a 44-40. Most of my 44-40 brass runs around .007 in thickness at the mouth. Most of my 45 Colt brass runs about .012 in thickness. What tends to happen with a 45 Colt case as the crimp is formed with a standard roll crimping die is the brass at the mouth curls over as it forms the roll crimp, forming a rounded profile. If the die is not adjusted absolutely perfectly, and a little bit to much crimp is formed, the brass will bite into the softer lead of the bullet, and actually mechanically lock itself into the bullet. That is what I would call a really 'firm' crimp. This is of course when using a standard seating/crimp die that seats the bullet and crimps in one step.

44-40 is a bit different. The material is really not much more than foil. It is only about .007 thick at the mouth. Using a standard seating/crimp die, the brass does not tend to form such a nice rolled crimp as a 45 Colt crimp. Instead, the material tends to 'flow' more and take the shape of the crimp groove it is flowing into. If the die is not adjusted properly, the thin brass will bottom out on the very top edge of the crimp groove, but the bullet will continue to be shoved into the case mouth. The brass is so thin it does not have enough rigidity to dig into the bullet like 45 Colt brass will. Instead, the bullet will shove the brass down with it, and the brass having nowhere else to go, it will crumple underneath the bullet as the bullet is shoved down a few thousandths. This is the crux of why some reloaders find the 44-40 difficult to reload and often resort to using a second die, one to seat the bullet, and a second to crimp the brass radially, namely the Lee Factory Crimp Die. But still, there is really no such thing as a 'firm' crimp with 44-40. The cartridge is either crimped or it's not. If you try to give it more crimp, you will usually wind up crumpling the neck.

This is a long, roundabout way of saying, that factories are going to experience the same thing. The thin brass of 44-40 is only capable of so much holding power, you will never find the same massive crimp on 44-40 as you will 45 Colt.

These days I only load 44-40 with Black Powder. One of the advantages of loading Black Powder that nobody mentions very much is that when you fill up the case with powder and compress it with a bullet, you've actually made a plug of powder that prevents the bullet from being set back in the case, like you describe. With Smokeless loads, it is only the crimp holding the bullet there, there is plenty of air space and no 'plug'. I make up dummy 44-40 rounds that have no powder in them, just a spent primer and a crimped bullet. I use them for various things, one of which is testing the feed of my rifles when I have been doing a little bit of 'smithing'. I have found that although the bullets stay in place when run once or twice through my rifles, if I completely compress the magazine spring by loading 10 or 12 into the tube, I cannot run those dummies through the rifle more than a few times. Without the powder helping the crimp to hold them in place, after a few times through the rifle, the bullets start setting back, sometimes completely telescoping into the case. Then I have to replace them.

I suspect it is the same with loaded factory Smokeless ammo. The crimp is probably fine if you take them out of the box, and just run them through the action once, but I'll bet if you cycle them through a few times, you will see them start to get set back.

[Driftwood Johnson]

As promised, here is a photo of a 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge.

The Henry is all the way on the left, with the copper case. It features a heeled bullet, the bullet diameter being the same diameter as the case. For comparison, from left to right are 44 Henry, 44 Special, 44-40, and 45 Colt. The examples of 44-40 and the 45 Colt are relatively old with balloon head cases. Note the lack of an 'extractor groove'. The 44 Sp is modern.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

It is my understanding that the 44Henry is "equivalent" to the 44 colt (lenght wise - Henry being RF and Colt being CF) with a 45cal healed bullet atop of it.

some kind sole did some checking and found that most "44 Henry" barrels were actually closer to .438-.442, with the larger diameter more common.

I have heard from more than one cartridge converison fanatic that using the 44colt with said 45healed bullet to get their CF 1866 conversion working. (had it rebarreled along the way at some point)

For folks wishing to shoot 44RF in their Henrys (original), here is something I have heard some folks have had "marginal" success with. (after removing one of their firing pins...read the description and you will see what I am talking about)

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_101_287&products_id=8152

[James Hunt]

Great information Driftwood. Since I don't seem to have the blowback issue that others describe, I'll state my load. I always shoot 32.5 gr of 2f Goex using a 250 grain bullet. I usually have Win brass on hand. I have never used starline. Then again it may just be a unique situation with my rifle.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

My winchester 94AE trapper worked great at the last shoot with Win brass, PRS boolits, 32gr of Pyrodex RS, and a FIRM roll crimp using Win LP primers. These were almost warthog loads in my pistols, but, they were actually quite clean as far as blowback.

Look at the info in the Darksiders Den about shooting 45lc for more info.

[gotzguns]

i've heard that the 44 henry cartridge was the last strait case cartridge that winchester made for lever action rifles. all other rounds had a slight taper or were bottle necked to stop blowbak into the action. even the 45/60 and the 45/70 have a slight taper. this gives a good seal agenest the hot gases.   gotzguns

[Driftwood Johnson]

gotzguns

I've heard that too, and no offense, but personally, I think it's hogwash. The bit about brass sealing better because it has a taper. The reason 44-40 seals a chamber so well is because the brass is simply thinner than the brass on other cartridges. For instance, 45 Colt these days tends to run around .012 thick at the mouth vs about .007 for 44-40. That's why the case seals so well. Blowback has no trouble finding its way around a slight taper. The advantage to a cartridge having a slight taper is it will feed slightly more reliably into the chamber of a repeating rifle than a straight case with no taper will. The narrower bullet finds its way into the chamber better and will allow for slightly more misallignment on the carrier. This is not a concern with cartridges originally meant to be stuffed into chambers by hand, straight walled cases like 45 Colt and 45 Schofield.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

Well, I've been shooting smokeless .44-40 loads for about 30 years, at least 17 with lead bullets, and I seat and crimp with a single RCBS regular (NOT Cowboy) dies.  Of course, I shoot .430" bullets in my guns.  What I do is to resize the cases with an RCBS regular sizing die.  The one I have is meant to size down the brass for use with .427" bullets, so it squeezes the case to about .424" inside dia. (I.D.).  I then expand and VERY SLIGHTLY flare the case mouth using an expander plug for .44 Magnum.  My sizer die reduces the case diameter far enough back that the expander plug doesn't re-expand the case quite as far as the base of the bullet.  The result is a slight, but clearly visible "wasp waist" in the case neck.  The flare in the mouth is almost invisible, but you can feel it.  Once the case is charge with powder, I seat and crimp the bullet with one stroke.  The crimp is adjusted to roll the case mouth into the crimp groove, or ahead of the front driving band, and is fairly visible, though NOT as much as on other cartridges.  The wasp waist keeps the bullet from being pushed into the case, and the crimp holds the bullet in with enough resistance to hold it.

Sure, it takes some fooling with the adjustments at first, but once set up, I have very few problems.  Feeding through a M1860 Henry (Uberti) replica and a Rossi M65 ('92 Winchester) is smooth.  The only problem that crops up with the Rossi is the case mouths sometimes catch on either the extractor cut or some other sharp corner and "pitcher mouth" the brass.  A needle nose pliars with one jaw convex and the other flat usually takes care of the problem.  I use Winchester brass ONLY!

[Glenn]

Wait!!! There is a third choice!  Cimarron makes one in 44 Special.  If you're interested in authentic...the 44 Russian is a centerfire 44 Henry and the Special was loaded to the same specs.  I've fired some 44R in my Browning 92 with a case full of black and it had more zip than I expected.  If the thing won't feed 44R it shouldn't take much to get them to work and you can load up and shoot all week!