51 Navy

[Quincy1]

I have been on a quest for a pocket BP revolver and the choice was Rem.63 and Colt 49
I got the Colt UBERTI from TAYLORS. There is an issue with wedge fit and it will go back for fix.

But......
I went to the local gun store on Saturday and they had in the used cabinet a 51 navy with 4.5" barrel w/5 shot cyl. Nickel plated back strap and trigger guard appears to be unfired. This is an Uberti but the Uberti name is on the LEFT side of the frame not under the rammer as the current Uberti, on the bottom of back strap is "Black Powder Only .36 Cal." Serial # 1019xx It has 3 prof marks on right side of frame and 2 on right side of barrel in front of wedge slot.

On top of barrel marked "Western Arms Corp Santa FE NM"

Well naturally I bought it. (No transfer tax. No 10 day waiting period) do any of you folks have any idea how old this gun is and did the real Colt make a 51 navy with 4.5 barrel and 5 shot cyl.

Now I have 2 pocket BP revolvers!   

Thanks for any info on my new/old NAVY

[Chance]

I am surprised to hear that this pistol is marked "Uberti" as to my knowledge this company has only manufactured copies of original Colt revolvers and Colt never made a short barrelled, five shot Navy. One of the marks you mention may be two letters in a square - this is the date code.

[Quincy1]

I am surprised to hear that this pistol is marked "Uberti" as to my knowledge this company has only manufactured copies of original Colt revolvers and Colt never made a short barrelled, five shot Navy. One of the marks you mention may be two letters in a square - this is the date code.

On the Right side of the frame there is a square box with "AD" Quality is excellent on this wepon and after disassembly and cleaning (and polishing the nickel plate) it is ready to be shot next week (if this #$%@^ rain ever stops)
This gun was among a large lot of guns brought to the store by the owners daughter upon the death of her father.

Quincy1
Any more info about "WESTERN ARMS" OF NM ?

[Chance]

The letters "AD" date this pistol at 1978. Does it have a straight cylinder or is it stepped like an 1860 Army?

[Quincy1]

The letters "AD" date this pistol at 1978. Does it have a straight cylinder or is it stepped like an 1860 Army?

The 5 shot cylinder is stepped, this is starting to get interesting!
Quincy1

[Rapid Lee]

As Chance stated, 1978 sounds right.  Western Arms was the predecessor to Allen Firearms and later Cimarron Firearms.  I bought a Western Arms branded 1860 Army in the '77-78 time frame and still have the original box and papers including a price sheet for Western Arms.  I believe what you have is an 1862 Pocket Navy.  They are36 caliber, 5 shot revolvers and look very much like the 51 Navy (thus the name).  It was available in 4 1/2, 5 1/2, and 6 1/2" barrel lengths, and retailed for $145 with wholesale set at $101.75.  Back in the day, Western Arms was considered the premium Uberti importer, much like I would consider Cimarron to be today.

Rapid

[Quincy1]

 and retailed for $145 with wholesale set at $101.75.  Back in the day, Western Arms was considered the premium Uberti importer, much like I would consider Cimarron to be today.

Rapid
[/quote]

Well it is a nice little gun  I paid $175.00 for it. No box of corse. Wish I could talk to the original owner but if he were still here I would not have it.
Do you folks have any suggestions for load? The cylinder is about the same size as the '49 pocket except for stepped up part. It has a stage coach scene on the cylinder like the '49 I did not notice that till now,  does this all mean that Colt did make this model in the real world?

Quincy1

[Chance]

That is correct, Quincy. The Pocket Navy was made from 1861/62 up to around 1873 with a total production of abour 19,000 pieces. This pistol is still in the Uberti catalogue, with 5½" or 6½" barrel, and retails in Europe for 399 Euros. As I said, Uberti only make copies of actual Colt pistols - the hybrids are left to Pietta.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

As a cooincidence, I just acquired a used Uberti 1862 Pocket Police.  Same thing, except the streamlined round barrel and creeping rammer.  Can anyone suggest loads with FFF Goex.  My thoughts are to try 15 - 18 grains.  I am using cigarette paper cartridges.

[Quincy1]

As a cooincidence, I just acquired a used Uberti 1862 Pocket Police.  Same thing, except the streamlined round barrel and creeping rammer.  Can anyone suggest loads with FFF Goex.  My thoughts are to try 15 - 18 grains.  I am using cigarette paper cartridges.

Sir Charles
First off I am wondering what date code is on yours. Mine is AD //1978
I shot this last weekend with about 11 g goex and a little cornmeal, lots of fun to shoot. It
LIKES #10 cci caps. Shoots about 12 inchs high @ 15 yards. Front sight on mine is about 1/16 bead.
This is truly a "last resort/ across the card table gun. 16 g of goex felt a bit "hot".
Does yours have nickel grip and back strap?
Quincy1

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Quincy-one;   The code letters in the box are AF.  4 1/2 in barrel, totally brass grip and backstrap.  Same tiny bead that shoots about as high as yours. It is marked by the local retailer CANADIAN ARMS CORP.-PRINCE GEORGE B.C.CANADA.  The owner had a personal relationship with Uberti himself.  Has some VERY low number samples in his collection.

I tried it with about 12 gr, and the ball went down quite a ways in the chamber.  I think it has room for .380 balls, so I dropped a $20 to get a .380 LEE mold. The issue nipples take #10 caps, but Ruger nipples fit perfectly for #11s.

I also have a cased and engraved '62 police!  (Also marked by the same dealer, as is my '51 Navy)  I havn't had the intestinal fortitude to actually shoot it, thats why I bought this one.  I'm thinking about a tiny dovetail sight to make it shoot level?

I'll have to learn how to post pics!

[Quincy1]

Quincy-one;   The code letters in the box are AF. 
I tried it with about 12 gr, and the ball went down quite a ways in the chamber.  I think it has room for .380 balls, so I dropped a $20 to get a .380 LEE mold. The issue nipples take #10 caps, but Ruger nipples fit perfectly for #11s.

I also have a cased and engraved '62 police!  (Also marked by the same dealer, as is my '51 Navy)  I havn't had the intestinal fortitude to actually shoot it, thats why I bought this one.  I'm thinking about a tiny dovetail sight to make it shoot level?

I'll have to learn how to post pics!

Sir Charles

Am sure many here can tell you how to post pic.

Well yours is 1980 according to a chart I got. Back strap and trigger guard here is Brass with Nickel plate. So some time between 78 and 80 Uberti must have tried to cut cost.

I use the LEE powder dippers and used # .07cc which they say is 11.1g of FFFg. My experience with these Lee dippers is they are a little lite; this is also why I used a little cornmeal.

I also use Ruger nipples on my Italian pistols and need to order some more for this. I like being able to use a 3/16 nut driver to remove the nipple AND they are stainless!
My question to anyone reading this is why  some nipples are shorter than others on the threaded end and is there any potential problem using longer ones than the factory installed?

I got a 61' Navy, Colt Signature 3rd generation which I do shot though I have the back strap and trigger guars in plating shop for Nickel plate. This is the one mfg by Uberti and finished by Colt. It's a looker and a dam nice shooter.

Quincy1

[Major 2]

Quincy1
Just to clear up a point for you...

"I got a 61' Navy, Colt Signature 3rd generation which I do shot though I have the back strap and trigger guars in plating shop for Nickel plate. This is the one mfg by Uberti and finished by Colt. It's a looker and a dam nice shooter"


Your 3rd. Gen Colt Signature, in fact  is made from Uberti Forgings. But unlike the 2nd. Gen. BP series , 3rd. gens were not finished by Colt.

The Second Gen.s were sent to Colt for US finish.

The Third Gen. Signature Series were sent to various others , one was Henry Repeating Arms  (Henry Big Boy manufacturer) in NY , .
Another, as I recall was Hammerit /Sig in Switzerland.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My '51 Navy is marked "AH".  Does that mean 1982?  It has a square backed trigger guard and both parts of the grip frame are plated.  It is a very good gun.  I had a dovetail sight put on, and it is more accurate than most of my cartridge guns. 

I looked for the same markings on my quite new CIMARRON  '51 Navy Richard Masons.  I didn't find any letters in a box, and no specific maker named.  Who made them?

This thread is taking some interesting turns!

I'm always ready to both learn and share.

[Major 2]

Sir Charles

It's 99.9% likely Uberti Manufactured your Cimarron R&M's.

Uberti also produced the CNC forgings for Colt , durring Colts Blackpowder Series run in white. Colt themselves finished that run here in the USA.
The Later Sig. series were farmed out by Colt to others , Henry and Sig  but were still sold as Colts .
These Guns called 2nd & 3rd Gen. will not have proof marks

Uberti had a number of Colt's Address marked barrels left over, Some of these were finished by Uberti and imported. 
Colt had that stopped, these guns will have the proof stamps as required by import laws.

Later, Uberti and USPFA had an agreement where by Ubreti supplied CNC forging to USPFA.
USPFA then finished the Guns here in the USA .
Somewhere, in 93, 94 or 95, Colt brought suit against USPFA over the name with "P" in it (Colt's patent).
So USPFA became USFA of today.

I own a USPFA 1860's Army R&M Shot show display sample, Research shows it was shown at the 93 Shots show.
Markings are - U.S.P.F.A. Hartford Conn. -   
Now it becomes interesting, I'm not sure how many were made.  Mine has a teen 2 digit Serial number.
These were more than likely US finished Uberti Forgings, fit and finish is very fine and what I'd expect from USFA. On par with 2nd Gen BP Series Colts too.

However ASM ( Aldo Uberti's , son in law opened in the 70's and ran ASM )
Produced & imported R&M's around this same time.
I contacted USFA in regards to my gun, they confirm they finished a limited run of 51 Navy R&M's ,
They also said this was time of turmoil ( moving operations, the name change etc.) and some records are misplaced.
He/they knew some prototypes were made up and shown at the Shot show.
He said he would look into it further.

Today, Cimarron is offering NEW in 06 several new models , one will be the Type 2 Richard & Mason Army (these will be Ubreti's)
I ordered one.
Cimarron also offers a US finish as an option on some of their lineup. However judging by my 72 Opentop, Fit & Finish is high quality Uberti/Cimarron and I don't see the extra need for a $200 option.

[Quincy1]

My '51 Navy is marked "AH".  Does that mean 1982?  It has a square backed trigger guard and both parts of the grip frame are plated.  It is a very good gun.  I had a dovetail sight put on, and it is more accurate than most of my cartridge guns. 

I looked for the same markings on my quite new CIMARRON  '51 Navy Richard Masons.  I didn't find any letters in a box, and no specific maker named.  Who made them?

This thread is taking some interesting turns!

I'm always ready to both learn and share.

Me too  and so gents, I ran across this somewhere on the internet, although there is no credit taken and I’ll be dammed if I remember if I edited that info out, If I did, my sincere apologies to the author, but for what its worth here it is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Going to have to write this down before it gets lost in the clutter of my head.

Using Roman Numerials, starting with 1954 as 'X'.

X = 1954
XI = 1955
XII = 1956
XIII = 1957
XIV = 1958
XV = 1959
XVI = 1960
XVII = 1961
XVIII= 1962
XIX = 1963
XX = 1964
...continues without skipping until

XXVI = 1970

Then, for some reason not really explained, they switched to:
XX7 = 1971
XX8 = 1972
XX9 = 1973

Then back to:
XXX = 1974

Then it chages to a letter code. Should be simple, but they skipped various letters throughout the "A" code, then decided to skip OTHER letters through out the "B" code. Didn't want to make it too easy I guess.

AA=1975
AB=1976
AC=1977
AD=1978
AE=1979
AF=1980
AH=1981 (notice they skip AG)
AI=1982
AL=1983 (skipped AJ and AK)
AM=1984
AN=1985
AP=1986 (skipping AO)
AS=1987 (skiping AQ and AR)
AT=1988
AU=1989
AZ=1990 (skipping AV,AW,AX, and AY)

BA=1991
BB=1992
BC=1993
BD=1994
BF=1995 (skipping BE)
BH=1996 (skipping BG)
BI=1997
BL=1998 (skipping BJ and BK)
BM=1999
BN=2000
BP=2001 (skipping BO)
BS=2002
BT=2003

Do not know how the letter code continues...or why they selected the letters to skip.

There will be proof marks (usually two). One of them will be a PN marking...this is a black powder proof. Have had people show that to me and claim that their gun is nitro proofed (thinking PN is for Proof Nitro)..it is not...that's a black powder proof.

Will USUALLY be a maker's stamp...but not always. In the early years, was common to have whoever improrted the gun supply whatever stamps they wanted..Navy Arms, Replica Arms, Sile, CVA, etc. But it all boils doen to a few makers. Common ones are: (aside from writting the company name out):

Pedersoli usually uses "DAP" or "dp".

Uberti usualy uses a "U" surroumded by an octogon outline...the octogon to represent a barrel outline.

Pietta Usually uses a "FAP" in a horizontal diamond outline.

Palmetto (who made a lot of Dixie Gun Works reproductions) uses a palm tree in a circle.

Armi San Paolo uses a DGG..this is also found on EuroArms (as they are more or less the same maker now). OFten harde to figure out as they overlap the DGG.

Armi Sport will usually use a "AC" in a circle.

How Beretta will or has changed this I do not know, but they do seem to be buying up or joining a lot of BP production.

The Colt first and second generation guns were made in Italy as well...but only as rough parts, the fix and finish by Colt, so only Colt's marking are on the guns.
-------

Just wnated to get this on-site so I can stop hunting up the written copy whenever it comes up as a question on-line

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps author went crazy or shot himself after posting this info but
that is all I have on this subject

Quincy1

[Ed Clintwood]

This is facinating.  I have a 2nd model Dragoon that has XX9, so I assume it's a 1973.  I see the PN proof mark, then one that's real hard to figure out.  Some sort of shield with perhaps an x inside and a crescent on top of the shield?  I bought the gun from Navy Arms new in the box serial 47xx.  Anyone have any ideas?  Sorry to go OT but this has answered some of my questions.

[Rapid Lee]

Quincy1,

Thanks for posting the proofmark codes!  I have a couple of Western Arms 1860 Army branded Ubertis as mentioned above that have the AE (1979) date stamp.  I also have 4 or 5 very early 4 digit s/n Navy Arms 1875 Reminton Replicas that have the AB (1976) date stamp.  Frustratingly, I have an even earlier Replica Arms 1875 with no date stamp, as well as an early NA 58 Remington with no date stamp, not to mention a couple of others.  Will every gun have a date stamp somewhere?  On the 58 I wouldn't think they would have needed to hide it somewhere else as all the other proof marks are on the barrel under the rammer where there's plenty of room.

On another related subject, I wonder if Uberti runs just one set of serial numbers per gun model no matter who the importer is, or if there are numerous sets of serial number ranges out there?  So, taking for example the 1860 Army, would Uberti create a seperate serial number range depending on the importer (Western Arms, Navy Arms, Uberti USA, Cimarron, etc) or would they all be serialized in the same range so that you could actually have consecutive serial numbers from two different importers?  Just wondering if anyone might know for sure!

Thanks...Rapid

[Chance]

Uberti guns are serial numbered as they are made and not according to the customer. It is possible to get consecutively numbered guns from different sources.
If this photo comes up you will see a box of pistols ready for shipment. Although there are several consecutive numbers there are also numbers from other ranges. The boxes are all marked by hand "STOE" and in one case "STOEG" (Stoeger?)

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I got to work on my new-to-me 1862 (uberti) Pocket Police.  I think i will start a pocket Colt thread.