Henery Bigboy

[Mystery Rider]

Looking through the bi-laws of NCOWS, I see this statement...

7-2.  No modern (post 1899) firearms will be allowed unless they are authentic reproductions of traditional firearms or very markedly resemble traditional firearms.

Which would lead me to believe this would be a legal rifle to shoot @ NCOWS shoots.  However further down in the document I see that the Henery Bigboy is specifically mentioned as not being legal for NCOWS. 

Now I have heard many people express their dislike for this rifle (I personally love mine!) for many different reasons, that being said, how can this rifle both fit the legal discription and also be said to be not legal?  And why?

I have been thinking about joining NCOWS, but not if I will have to get another rifle that I personaly don't see the need for.  I have been shooting SASS about three months now.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[Trap]

  Mystery Rider,

  The henry BB , even though having the name of an historical firearm, is not a repro of an actual henry rifle. This has been a problem in the past , ie Bisley Vaquero.          jt

[O.T. Buchannan]

Mystery Rider, thank you for your interest in NCOWS.  SASS is an organization that, by definition (in it's by-laws) does NOT require an adherence to history.  NCOWS, on the other hand (and also by it's by-laws) DOES require an adherence to authenticity.  

In order to participate in NCOWS, you either need an original firearm, or a historically correct reproduction thereof.  For example, take an 1866 Winchester reproduction.  Originals were in .44 Rimfire (with .44 C.F. existing, but the rimfire was predominant).  An 1866 markedly resembles the original, and a correctly antiqued varient COULD in fact pass for an original, unless an experienced, expert eye went over it and minutely pointed out the differences.  Because of this extreme close resemblence, the firearm is allowed in the category, and the caliber (although different from the original) is allowed.  Basically, this firearm is allowed because it is a reproduction of something that ACTUALLY EXISTED.

Likewise, you could say the same about a Uberti Henry rifle, a Uberti 1873 Winchester, or a Spencer reproduction.  All of those firearms ACTUALLY existed in the Old West, so correct reproductions of them are allowed in NCOWS.  

If you consider it another way, a Ruger Blackhawk is NOT an example of a firearm that actually existed in the Old West.  True, it is a single action six-shooter, but it is a modern varient that is NOT an example of something that existed.  You can use a Ruger Blackhawk in SASS, but you CANNOT use it in NCOWS.  See?

I'm sure the Henry Big Boy is a fine rifle.  I personally don't own one, as my primary focus is history, and historically correct firearms.  One thing the manufacturer of those Henry Big Boys has come under fire for of late is CLAIMING that his firearms are the 'real deal', and just like they had back then.  That is a false claim, and although as I said I am sure it is a fine firearm, it is NOT a reproduction of something that actually existed.

SASS is a much larger organization, and many shooters drawn to shoot CAS hear about, and join SASS first.  People THEN spend their money to outfit themselves for SASS, according to SASS guidelines.  Invariably, people will eventually hear about NCOWS, and some decide to try it out, without fully understanding that our guidelines and by-laws are DIFFERENT, and some SASS items just don't fit within our guidelines.  I can especially understand the consternation of a SASS member (who has already spent money on firearms, clothing, and equipment) wanting to participate in NCOWS, only to find out that the items he/she has spent money on don't meet our guidelines.  Believe me, I know!

I can understand your position in not wanting to go out and purchase different firearms just to compete in NCOWS.  However, you can STILL join NCOWS, if nothing else, to receive 'The Shootist', which comes with the membership.  Even if you DON'T join, please feel free to converse here and see what we are about.  You would be welcome.......

[44caliberkid]

"Authentic Reproduction" means a near exact copy of a firearm that existed prior to 1898.  The Big Boy is not a copy of anything nor does it resemble any historic arm, especially a Henry rifle.  It would be like me saying because Mauser made a breech loading, bolt action rifle in 1880, that I could use a Winchester Model 70 in .458.  Similar actions, but in no way any kind of replica.
   No prejudice here either, I don't mind brass frames as I shoot a brass frame Uberti 66 and I don't mind Henry's modern arms, I think the blued steel .22 lever action is probably the best 22 lever gun out there for the money.

[Will Ketchum]

OT, your reply was right to the point and well written.  You explained it as well as can be explained.

Thanks Pard.

Will Ketchum

[Lone Gunman]

Looking through the bi-laws of NCOWS, I see this statement...

7-2.  No modern (post 1899) firearms will be allowed unless they are authentic reproductions of traditional firearms or very markedly resemble traditional firearms.
Which would lead me to believe this would be a legal rifle to shoot @ NCOWS shoots.  However further down in the document I see that the Henery Bigboy is specifically mentioned as not being legal for NCOWS.

A picture is worth a thousand words,  this "Henry Big Boy"



is neither an authentic reproduction of, nor does it 'markedly resemble' or even resemble at all, this 1860 Henry (which is a firearm that actually existed pre-1899)



I'm sure you'll recognize the differences.  You could call a Toyota a Duesenberg but that wouldn't make it a Duesenberg 

[Fox Creek Kid]

Hey, L.G., the Dusenburg brothers (Fred and August (Augie) Duesenberg) started out in my city as bicycle builders, so technically speaking you could have a Dusenburg and it be a bicycle!   

More to the point, here is a another case (with the H. Big Boy) of "because I like it who are you to question me?" and "history be damned, shoot your own game" posts that make want to vomit.   

[Black River Smith]

Mystery Rider,

Please continue to look at joining NCOWS.  It is an oppurtunity to have a different perspective on the CAS game/hobby.

As OTB and Lone Gunman have sufficiently pointed out, in their postings, the two rifles are not the same.

However, I am truly curious about your overall evaluation of the By-Law.  What in the By-Laws lead you to believe that the Henry Big Boy was acceptable?  If you could provide your interreptations, rather than just taking a flat no, they will then help us.  As a Club, maybe we could re-evaluate the wording, thereby deterring any future misinterruptations and confusions.

I would and I am sure others would also appreciate hearing your thought process.  Please be as detailed as possible.

You also stated you have been shooting for 3 months.  How long did you look at equipment before you bought?

Yes, NCOWS looks for authenticity from its shooters and this does come with inherent limits, but beginners are welcome.  To let you know the Marlin is a viable accepted option for a rifle.

Thanks

[Cyrille]

Mystery Rider:
         I joined CAS on Feb.07 of this year having heard of cowboy action shooting shortly before that date. The 1st "outfit" I looked at was NCOWS because, just getting started, I'd seen that they offer a catagory called 'Working Cowboy" which requires that one only have a single action revolver and rifle.
Well as it turns out I fulfill that requirement having a 'Bisley' Vaquero and a model '94 Winchester. I came within a cats wisker of sending in my dues, then to my surpeise and disappointment I learned that neither firearm was NCOWS legal!
   I exchanged a few cordial e. mails with various members of NCOWS stating that I had bought my firearms before hearing of CAS and/ or NCOWS and could not join their "outfit" because of their bylaws, even though They were the first I had thought of joining. I mean they have their way of thinking and while I bought my 'gear' before hearing about them I could not see myself spending more money to meet their requirments and that I would look elsewhere for something that met my requirments. I have no hard feelings toward that organization. It's just that we happen to be travaling differnt trails to reach the same destination.

[Lone Gunman]

... model '94 Winchester.... neither firearm was NCOWS legal...

Actually the 1894 Winchester IS a legal NCOWS rifle in it's traditional design. It is only the modern  Angle Eject version (abbreviated on the barrel as AE), which was a design change in 1982 to facilitate the mounting of scopes, that isn't allowed.

[Cyrille]

To the Lone Gunman:
           Where, exactly is thia AE marked on the barrel? My model '94 is an octagon barreled "Trail's End"I have just examned the barrel and can find no such marking.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Mystery rider, You're not alone in buying something that isn't period correct when you thought it was. A couple years ago I picked up an H&R (Wesson & Harrington stamped) handi-rifle in 38-55 because I was told by someone that they were the same as the originals. Well, they aren't. No problem. I even got shouted down on another forum when I showed my ignorance about the thing. I consider it a $400 lesson but it wouldn't turn me away from any organization that wouldn't allow it just because I have it. I can always sell it and turn it into something else if I choose to.

[Mystery Rider]

Hey, L.G., the Dusenburg brothers (Fred and August (Augie) Duesenberg) started out in my city as bicycle builders, so technically speaking you could have a Dusenburg and it be a bicycle!   

More to the point, here is a another case (with the H. Big Boy) of "because I like it who are you to question me?" and "history be damned, shoot your own game" posts that make want to vomit.   

I'm sorry you took my question as a 'BASH' to NCOWS....That was not my intent.  I simply wanted to know the reasoning behind the decision.  If I offended you, my appologies.  Being new to the CAS scene, I thought I could ask questions to further my knowledge, apparently I was wrong.  Again I'm sorry if I offended you.

[Lone Gunman]

To the Lone Gunman:
           Where, exactly is thia AE marked on the barrel? My model '94 is an octagon barreled "Trail's End"I have just examned the barrel and can find no such marking.

While I haven't seen your particular rifle, in general the Angle Eject models are marked like this:



I don't believe there are any post 1982 mfg model 94's that aren't angle eject.

[Mystery Rider]

Mystery Rider,

Please continue to look at joining NCOWS.  It is an oppurtunity to have a different perspective on the CAS game/hobby.

As OTB and Lone Gunman have sufficiently pointed out, in their postings, the two rifles are not the same.

However, I am truly curious about your overall evaluation of the By-Law.  What in the By-Laws lead you to believe that the Henry Big Boy was acceptable?  If you could provide your interreptations, rather than just taking a flat no, they will then help us.  As a Club, maybe we could re-evaluate the wording, thereby deterring any future misinterruptations and confusions.

I would and I am sure others would also appreciate hearing your thought process.  Please be as detailed as possible.

You also stated you have been shooting for 3 months.  How long did you look at equipment before you bought?

Yes, NCOWS looks for authenticity from its shooters and this does come with inherent limits, but beginners are welcome.  To let you know the Marlin is a viable accepted option for a rifle.

Thanks

Even though I have only been into CAS shooting for about three months, I have been looking at participating for over a year or more.  I just recently found out about NCOWS (approx. 2 weeks ago).  I have been looking at equipment for some time now (again approx. a year), and even asked about the Bigboy to others that are shooting.  No one told me (until after I purchased) that it was not a true reproduction.  I guess if I had looked more closely I should have realized this, but being excited about becoming active in the sport, I overlooked this fact.  I am grateful that SASS does allow the use of this rifle.  I am by no means trying to 'BASH' NCOWS, just trying to find a place to fit.  To those that took offense to my question, my apologies.

When I read the section about 'closely resembling', I took that to mean visual not mechanical.  Since the purchase of this rifle, I have come to realize that the way the rifle functions (eject, etc.) is different than the original 1866 Yellowboy (I believe this is the rifle it most closly resembles).  That being said, when I purchased this rifle, I worked the Winchester 1894, the Uberti 1866, and the Marlin.  None of them had as smooth an action as the Bigboy.  Even now having tried other's of those makes and models that have been shot extensively, the Bigboy is still smoother.  That is the biggest reason I purchased this rifle.  My opinion.

To you, thank you for your response and genuine interest in how I came to the conclusion I came to.  Folks like you will keep me interested in the sport.

[Books OToole]

Mystery Rider;

I don't know what part of the country you are from;  but if you come to the Kansas Vigilence Committee's 2 gun shoot at Garnett, Kansas, (May 5-7), we will find you something to shoot.  I have spare pistols and I am confident that some one will offer a spare rifle/carbine.

In fact if you want to live dangerously, the format for the shoot is "any 2 NCOWS legal guns."  I have two spare pistols or a pistol and a shotgun that I won't be using for the match.  You would have to come up with ammo.  The pistols are .45 Colt and the scatter gun is a 12 gauge.

Let me know what you think;

Books

[Mystery Rider]

Mystery Rider;

I don't know what part of the country you are from;  but if you come to the Kansas Vigilence Committee's 2 gun shoot at Garnett, Kansas, (May 5-7), we will find you something to shoot.  I have spare pistols and I am confident that some one will offer a spare rifle/carbine.

In fact if you want to live dangerously, the format for the shoot is "any 2 NCOWS legal guns."  I have two spare pistols or a pistol and a shotgun that I won't be using for the match.  You would have to come up with ammo.  The pistols are .45 Colt and the scatter gun is a 12 gauge.

Let me know what you think;

Books

Little far for me (Utah), but thanks anyway.  For the most part, this is the attitude I have found at the shoots I have been to.

[Cyrille]

To the Lone Gunman:
           There is no AE in the area that your photo shows the barrel I have reads Winchester model 94 caliber .45 Colt I have no way of determining the year of production of my rifle the serial number reads in part 6555xxx. Perhaps you or someone more knowledgable than myself can determine the year of production of this individual rifle. I sure would apprciate any information that may be provided.

[Lone Gunman]

Cyrille,
The first "Trails End" model 94's were produced in 1997. I don't have any model 94 serial number info newer than 1982. I'm not sure where more current info could be found, all regular sources seem in end with 1982. 

[Cyrille]

Thank you for the information. When I purchased the rifle earlier this year I had just heard that Winchester was going to move out of the U.S. and that the model '94 was no longer going to be in production along with the  model '70 rifle and a shotgun I believe is the model 300. Anyhow according to your recent posts my rifle is not NCOWS legal. But then I already knew that or at least suspected that your statement about my '94 was in error even though  :)there is no AE on my rifle's barrel. I do however believe that my model'94 is one of the last model '94's to be produced in the U.S. of A. Again I thank you for the information it is truly apprciated.