EMF/Uberti Question

[Arcey]

Let's see if we can answer a pard's question.....

Does anyone know if Uberti and EMF guns are derived from the same manufacturer?  The bisley and other  revolvers look very similar, but are priced differently.
Thanks in advance,
Hawkeye Harv

[Crooked Creek Kid]

I'm not sure about now but in the past Armi San Marco produced the SAA for EMF.  I had a Hartford model back several years ago that was really nice (about 7-8 years ago).

[Camille Eonich]

Some of the EMF guns are manufactured by Uberti.  Some are manufactured by other companies.  It all depends on which gun you are buying. 

[Four-Eyed Buck]

The Hartfords are Uberti, the GW II's are Pietta. EMF broke with Armi San Marco quite a few years ago( before AWA bought San Marco)...........Buck

[Fixit Wright]

Actually, when you eyeball the Cimarron, EMF, and Uberti Bisleys together in the ads, they all look very similar-  to the extent that they could all have precisley the same specs.  I don't know if they do or not.  But if they did, it wouldn't be a stretch to say they all have the same manufacturing origins, but take different marketing routes.

For someone (like myself) who is interested in the Bisley, it would represent three avenues to purchase the product instead of just one.  Regardless of the fact that they are all priced with a different suggested list price, is there really any difference between the three?  My interest stems from the fact that they may be better suited for someone with smaller hands, and if I could find one in a gunshop in Connecticut, I would no for sure.

Hawkeye Harv

[Camille Eonich]

Hawkeye, Uberti is the manufacturer.  EMF and Cimarron are importers of the Uberti guns.  You may see some cosmetic differences such as blue screws in the Cimarron imports but they are the same gun.

EMF does have some guns by different manufaturers but they usually put the manufacturer's name on the web site when it's different than Uberti.

[Fixit Wright]

Thank you for the confirmation. 
Purchasing one then is a no-brainer - whoever has the best deal.

So now what about the Bisley.  Does it fit small hands better than the 1873 clone?

Hawkeye H

[Wolfcamp Hill]

Howdy Hawkeye,

cant say whether they fit small hands better or not.  i have big hands and the italian bisleys dont hold right for me, which is odd because the original COLT BISLEY MODEL has a very good grip shape for me.  The ubertis seem like they crowd my fingers up a lot on the front of the grip.  Maybe you can find somebody shooting one at a shoot and try it out.

Wolfcamp

[Virginia Gentleman]

True, EMF uses Pietta in addition to Uberti as an importer, however, Ubertis imported by Cimarron are more authentic and have to be made to the specifications set forth by Cimmarron.  The Cimarron Ubertis do not have the hammer safety either while I have been told the EMF ones still incorporate it.  The Cimarron Ubertis in a side by side comparison with the EMF, look, feel and balance better than the EMF.  The Great Western EMF is about on par with the US Finish Cimarron SAA, but is more expensive and is not as authentic in design to the Cimarron.

[RRio]

Cammy's got it right. EMF's Hartford and New Dakota are both made by Uberti. I 've got one 7 1/2" New Dakota in.45 LC that I have done some personnalizing on, that I would not take anyhing for. It is one of my main match guns, the other being my b/cch USFA.

[Virginia Gentleman]

The grip frames on the Ubertis and EMFs are a bit larger than the Colt, USFA and Cimarron.

[Evil Vaquero]

Howdy!


What I do know is that the EMF Great Westers II are made by Pietta....And let me tell you, I have a pair in 7.5" , .45 Colt, and they are two of the sweetest shootin guns I've ever used, right ot of the box.

Happy Trails!

[Griff]

Camille is correcto!  Dixie, Taylor's Cimarron, EMF and a couple of others are only importers of firearms.  They don't make them.  As such, they generally use the same sources.  Currently they are using Uberti, Armi San Marco and Pietta.  EMF has used many manufacturer's for it's Old West styled guns over the years.  There was Jager of Italy from back in the 70's, Armi San Marco of Spain, and most recently, Uberti and Pietta, also of Italy.  Off and on, I suspect they've used ASM and Uberti the longest.  Depending on the model you order and the time of the order, you could receive guns from different manufacturers.  I have a Hartford Model from the early 90s that was made by Armi San Marco and a new one by Uberti.  I talked with Boyd and he said that they split with ASM several years back over quality control issues.  But, even as they were selling the ASM Hartford Model, they had several Uberti made arms in the their line-up.  Cimarron may spec certain features (they are the only ones to offer the "fire-blue" finish), but truly there are differences solely in cosmetics between Ubertis made for EMF and those for Cimarron.  Remember, EMF has been in this import of Colt clones for many more years than Cimarron, and there have been numerous iterations of what's offered.  You can pick on the basis or price or what you like the look of, you'll be getting a well made gun, either way.

In addition to the EMF Hartford Models I have one of the Jager "Dakota" models from back in the 70s.  This gun has been used by myself, my wife, and my son for CAS competition since I first started playing the game in 1985.  It received an action job by Bob Munden around 1987 and I ain't ever looked back.  It doesn't get used much anymore, but I'd take it out tomorrow and compete with it if one of my Colts was broke.  And talk about consistency.... the two different Hartford Models, were given action jobs by Bill Oglesby of Oglesby & Oglesby, the ASM in 1993 and the Uberti in 2006, and one is hard pressed to tell the difference between the two.  I'm sure that's due in no small part to Bill's skill, but also to the requirements of EMF for the Hartford Model.

[Stuntman]

I too have an Uberti Hartford ...I know that Uberti is owned now by Barretta and originally when Uberti designed their 1873 SA they copied the Colt so closely that the parts were interchangable...with kickin and hollarin by Colt...mods were made and ya can't do that anymore.......but for my money the Uberti is still one of the most affordable Colt copies and it shoots great

[Uncle Jaque]

As mentioned in an earlier post about an AWA SAA clone I'd come across and was tempted to buy, despite it's rather steep price of $500, I've been looking for a decent SAA revolver in my favorite pistol round, the .44 S&W Special, for years.

That AWA was the first one I'd come across for sale in many of those years, but I balked at the price.

Inquiring in this forum, the consensus seemed to be that although the AWA "Peacekeeper" (no longer produced due to litigation from Colt) is a good piece, it is still an Italian repro and an equivalent revolver may be had new for significantly less.  Heeding that advice, I passed on it.

Last Saturday, one of my Pards invited me to accompany him and a couple other shootist buddies up to the Waterville Gun Show.

Perusing all the neat "stuff", I kept an eye out for single actions.  Most of them were Rugers or collector's pieces, well out of my budget and none in .44 Spl.

At length a couple of hoglegs were detected on a Dealer's table.  It just so happens that I know the chap, and had bought an FN-49 from him several years before. 

Upon inquiry, lo and behold: one of them was indeed one of the rare .44 Specials; one of the early Uberti brass-handled "Dakotas", essentially like new, that has allegedly been fired a few times and then relegated to a safe for around 25 years.   Although I sort of favored the 5 1/2" tube, this one has the long "Army" 7 1/2 - which I can live with.

He would come down from $365 to $325, but that's as far as he'd go. 
But since I had managed to sell my CETME, I had some capital to "invest", and since a .44 Spl does not come along all that often - especially when I have some "gun money" burning a hole in my pocket - I pulled out my greenbacks, made out the BATFE form, and walked out with my new .44.

Yeah; I know that the brass grip frame and trigger guard are farby as all heck.... but I like 'em.
I think they're right purty, akcthully.

The fact that this iron has not been used much is obvious; the cylinder turns stiffly, the loading gate opens and closes the same; an indication of tight tolerances and a need to break in.
The action "speaks" well; on the last or "T-click" on cocking the 3-clicks in one of the sear, bolt, and hand engaging occur simultaneously enough so that the 3 are essentially heard as one click; on the AWA there was a microsecond of separation between the last two.  The simultaneous engagement suggests pretty decent timing as is. 

The lockup is tight, and although I have yet to find my shim gauges, the cylinder gap is minimal. Any tighter, I opine, and the revolver might lock up as the heat from firing expanded the cylinder.

The "Jaeger" stamp is on the top of the barrel:

...and "EMF" on the bottom, along with a few Italian proofmarks here and there on the cylinder (which seems like a funny place to put them - but at least they're small).




Some appointments in the vicinity of our former residence took me near the range I still belong to (for the rest of the year anyway) so I had dug up some ammo and swung by after all was said and done to testfire my new acquisition.

As a benchmark for accuracy, I used factory R-P lead RN ammo.
The rounds dropped into the chambers effortlessly, and I remembered how I load my .22 Frontier Scout;
One; skip; 2 - thru - 4; carefully cock and let down on the empty chamber.

The Dakota spoke with certain authority, and snaps up and to the left with a sharp recoil.   Not unpleasant, although it did give my middle finger a bit of a beating with the rear of the trigger bow.  Nothing I didn't get used to with my Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag though, to be sure.

Rifling looks a little shallow to me - but it seems to do the trick with both lead and jacketed bullets just the same.

This Dakota .44 surely has potential; I managed to keep 'em all on the backboard - and most of them on the paper at 25 yards offhand, and several of the rounds actually found the black.

Since my scanner is on the fritz, I took a pic of the targets I brought home:



I found that to avoid flyers to the left, I have to keep my thumb firmly rested behind the recoil shield alongside the hammer.  And to keep them from going too low, not to put much if any grip pressure on with the pinky finger - much like the M-1911A1 grip.

The trigger is bloody awful; it's long, hard, rough, creepy, and inconsistent.
  The triggers on my stock SKSs aren't much if any worse - and if you have an SKS you'll know what that's all about.

I have to drag the trigger back kicking and screaming all the way while trying to keep the sights aligned and on target at the same time - a challenge to be sure.

I'll have to open it up and tweak it with a fine Washita stone like I did once with my cap-n'-ball revolver some years ago.  I can't imagine that the guts would be all that different.
Then again, with this trigger I might have to grind it some just to get it in close proximity of where it's supposed to be.

Does anyone know of a site with tune-up tips for SA revolvers, just to refresh my memory?

This .44 surely has lots of potential, once I get it slicked up and tuned properly.

Reckon I'll have to dig up the loading dies, set up the bench, and start cranking out some more .44 Specials!

[Major 2]

Griff ... just to clarify Armi San Marco is or was an Italian manufacturer ....not Spanish (however there is or was a Similar sounding Spanish name Armas Gib-Maximo)

The head man there at ASM married into the Uberti Family (Son in Law)

Armi San Marco (ASM) became AWA.... around 2000-01

Granted, I have seen some quality issues with some ASM's, I've also seen some very nice ones.
I had a 1995 or 96 Cavalry model Hartford by ASM from E.M.F. in 45 LC. it was a very very nice gun.

[Uncle Jaque]

The grip frames on the Ubertis and EMFs are a bit larger than the Colt, USFA and Cimarron.

Now that you mention it, the grips on my Dakota don't seem to have the old "plowhandle" look of the original Colts.   I think they are a little fat about halfway up and towards the backstrap.

Also, didn't the Colts have about a 3 degree upward angle on the grips at the butt?  Mine are about flat.

I will eventually strip the varnish off of these, slim the grips down a little at the midpoint, perhaps angle the butt a little and rub a combination of linseed and tung oil into them.

Did any of the military M-1873s ever have a lanyard ring installed?

[Curley Cole]

Some history:
The earlier EMF Dakotas were made by Jager. I still have 2 of them and they shoot very well. Parts are becoming hard to find, and they are metric. I just replaced the brass backstrap/triggerguard on one with a set of black nickel made by Armi-San Marcos. (only problem was I had to get the longer mainspring. Works fine.

I own three Taylor Ubertis and they have poly-ivory grips made for the second generation Colt. It is a perfect fit.

I have 3 Great Western 2's and the last one I got was a custom nickel plated one,I had a set of Real Ivory grips made for the second gen. Colt fitted, and the fit is perfect. The gunsmith that fitted the grips said that was about the sweetest handling gun he had seen, and he said all the other manufacturers say their guns are like Colts, and they lie, but that GW2 was the closest of them all......

I am really happy with all my old Dakotas, my Taylors and especially my Gw2....

cc

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

All the Cimmaron Uberti's they ship to Maryland have the hammer safety.  Must be enough sales to comply with state law.  Yeah, we have the dumb fired case law too.  They send two cases with every pistola.  They clean 'em before they ship 'em though.
BB

[Uncle Jaque]

The Jagers were METRIC, you say?!  That's interesting.

Perhaps that's why the parts I just got for it from VTI don't fit.

For example; my old base pin is .256" in dia, while the repro (which is supposed to fit the Colt and "virtually" every other clone ) is .250".  Wouldn't .256 be around 6mm?
What's the dia. of your base pin/s?

I may have to turn one up on my lathe if I want one.