1880 stetson hat...

[Bitterwheat]

I have read all the post on this subject. And that gentleman is why I won't join NCOWs. I have been into Muzzleloading and into bucksking, and historial trekking. I love history, but to argue over some thing as a hat is childish.  This has started to sound like my dad can whip your dad. Life is to short for all of this. I shoot to have fun, and I like to dress the way I think a cowboy would have dressed, from pictures I have seen In older books.  Just my .02 worth as an observer

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Cuts,
What is the name of the collection those two photos are under? I looked for them but couldn't find them.

Thanks,
bill

[Lone Gunman]

It's the Solomon Butcher collection.  If you follow the link in Cuts' post and then type 'hats' in the "Search Descriptive Information" box a whole list of links will come up.  According to the first 4 I clicked on all of the hats worn in western Nebraska in the late 1880's were top hats....they were all uncreased 

[Cuts Crooked]

LG is correct, OCB! However he needs to keep digging!  I had best luck by random searching of varied scenes. Look for "builldings" and shots of scenery. They tend to have people in them that were brought together on the spur of the moment. (found one of a County Sheriff outside a soddy that had some of the nastiest lookin hats I ever saw! And they were on his family!!!!!!!!! )

[Black River Smith]

I typed in hats (11 photos) and then cowboys (79 photos).

There was an automobile in one hat photo listing, so I guess that takes care of gun-cart worries.

Lot of Montana peak patterns in Neb.

[Black River Smith]

Nolan and to all,

My first post with the word 'common' was meant as a joke.  Note the first line "throw a fly in the ointment"

You all jumped on it too seriously.  Yes, there were hats being mades by several companies.  Even one here in MO that existed from the 1860's until ~2003.  Can someone come up with catalogs or ads from some hat companies in order to help?

But since you want to be serious then to me the amish hat, the boller, the top hat, and the civil war slouch hat were always "common and recognized" American hats for our period. But also believe it or not the eastern Fadora is also seen in photos normally abused but.....

We all agree there where several different styles/shape made.  But people handled them used them in different manners than we do today.  Even if we could find catalogs from manufactures, a hat is a personal item, they were changed.  Tom Sellick in Monte Walsh showed it plainly when he dunked the brand new rounded hat into the water barrel and then changed it appearance.

But to me one photo does not confirm the existence of a particular style hat.  I would rather say, as I did in my third posting and Nolan states here, look at older photos like the Civil War. These photos are posed but not staged, they represent true to life existence in the field at any one moment.  Not all took the time to clean-up or wear their finest.  Also the Time Life books have many group photos.

[Will Ketchum]

I have read all the post on this subject. And that gentleman is why I won't join NCOWs. I have been into Muzzleloading and into bucksking, and historial trekking. I love history, but to argue over some thing as a hat is childish.  This has started to sound like my dad can whip your dad. Life is to short for all of this. I shoot to have fun, and I like to dress the way I think a cowboy would have dressed, from pictures I have seen In older books.  Just my .02 worth as an observer

Gee Bitterwheat, I sure have seen more heated debates when I was in buckskinnig .  Mostly this discussion has been pretty civil although a couple of people have tried to fan the flames.  Over the years the modern styled cowboy hat has been a sore point with many and it comes up from time to time here.

If this is what is keeping you from joining us I don't know what to say further. With your back ground and interest in history you would be a welcome addition.

Will Ketchum

[Iowa Wiley Stafford]

Ok fellers,

  I just could'nt let this pass without my two cents on some of this horse hockey.  First off, the major thing that we need to realize is that people are involved in this sport/hobby for FUN.  All of this my hat is correct and yours is not, my belt rig is right, so your can't be stuff is beating the fun right out of it.  I realize that we are striving to look as close to authentic as we can, but we also need to provide some caveats to what we are doing to make this enjoyable and affordable also.  As Wild Ben said, to start backpeddling on all sorts of stuff now is really detrimental to the organization as a whole.  That being said, the equine has been killed a couple of hundred times on most of this now, so lets move on.  However, consideration should be well thought thru on things that have been allowed for a long period of time before thinking about banning all sorts of other stuff like gun carts and the like.  I suppose the next thing after that will be eliminating the women from the shooting events due to no holster/dress pics.

   Second, that brings me to the hat subject.  I spent a little time talking to my dad this evening about the subject, as I like to talk to the old timers that came closer to that era than most of us.  It has been my experience as far as the 'written' word in history books and such that it all depends on who is writing the history and what perspective he/she wants to convey to you.  A little about my dad,  His grandfather homesteaded the spot that is now Bruning, Nebr. in the 1870's and had 3 other ranches/farms in western Kansas and southern Nebr.  His father was raised in a sod house between Minden and North Platte, Nebr. and knew W.F. Cody.  And my dad cowboyed in the Sandhills in the 1930's and early '40's.  I asked him as to the style of hats most wore, including his granddad, and he told me that you name it, they wore it.  It all depended alot on what home country they came from, wealth prosperity, etc.  But, he said he remembered that his granddad always wore a light tan/grey Stetson with the cattleman's crease.  Of course, his granddad was fairy prosperous through life, and wore very nice clothes almost always.  In those days if you could afford 6 kids AND 3 hired men on the home place, you could afford the hat of your choosing and how you wanted it styled.

  One final thought on this 'common' stuff also.  Discussed that with dad also.  Most people did not order all that crap out of the Sears/Wards catalogs, they used them for toilet paper!  If a general store did not have what you needed at the time, you used something called the pioneer spirit and made what you needed to fit your particular need.  And that included everything from leather goods to ropes to blacksmith items.   As I said before just my two cents.

                                                                                            IWS

[Grizzle Bear]

Was in a LongHorn SteakHouse the other day, they have lots of Western items and pictures for decor.  One picture was of a bunch of cowboys on a trail drive or roundup, sitting around TWO (!) chuckwagons.

Counted 19 men in the picture, two of them had on derby's, of the other 17, ONE had a fore-and-aft crease like the hat that started this thread.  Two of them had "pinch" creases.  All the others were wearing BOP hats, with no crease of any sort.

NOW, ON ANOTHER SUBJECT:

Here we all are, on an NCOWS forum, having an animated, but not heated, discussion about historical items, namely, hat styles, hat creases, and their frequency of occurance.  As NCOWS members, this is a large part of what we do.

Invariably, while we are having one of these informative discussions, one or more boobs will show up with a posting about "this s#&t is why I quit/won't join NCOWS, you guys are always arguing about stuff, instead of having fun!"

Well, for one thing, we ARE having fun, sifting through the vast amount of historical data, much of it misleading or downright wrong, trying to find a nugget of truth in the overburden of nonsense.  By the way, we like to SHOOT, too!

For another thing, if you have made the decision to quit or not join NCOWS, because of your dislike of our search for the truth of the Old West, why are you still hanging around on our forum, and participating in our discussions?  Why do you continue to torture yourself, reading all our postings about authenticity?

Surely you don't imagine that your sour-grapes postings are going to make any NCOWS member suddenly smack himself on the forehead and exclaim "Oh, my God, he's right, we just exist to argue!  I'm quitting NCOWS right now!"

Is it just that you agree with Groucho Marx, who said "I wouldn't belong to any organization that would have me as a member!"?

Perhaps you receive some sort of perverse pleasure in disrupting other peoples' dicussions.  The Internet term for such a person is "troll."

If so, I implore you to seek psychiatric counseling, so that you may become a useful member of society.

P.S. to Marshal Halloway:  Does this board have a "twit" filter?



Grizzle Bear

[Trap]

  I.W.S.

  I would like to comment on one subject that you brought up in your post. I have been in NCOWS going on 9 years now. not one of the founders, but have been around long enough to see a pattern. NCOWS has never "backpeddled" on authenticity requirements or items approved for use. Yes the preception of such is out there, but that is because people have used items without going through the proper sequence of obtaining documentation and having the item approved. That is what the by-laws state. They got by with it for awhile , so they thought they were in the clear, but when challenged the items proved not to measure up to NCOWS standards. Once an item is put on the approved list it will not be removed!!!  So those who complain about an item they used being banned by NCOWS, have themselves to blame , because they did not go through the process of having it approved.

Gun carts, as much as some dislike them they are here to stay (at the national level) as long as there are people who choose to shoot classes with more than one long gun.

                                                          IMHO  John Torrence , NCOWS Judge

[Mustang Gregg]

Common use???

Lessee----
Where plastic shot shells in COMMON USE?
Where lever rifles in .45  or .357 in COMMON USE?

Where do we draw a line?

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Mustang Gregg said;

Common use???

Lessee----
Where plastic shot shells in COMMON USE?
Where lever rifles in .45  or .357 in COMMON USE?

Where do we draw a line?

Grizzle Bear said;

For another thing, if you have made the decision to quit or not join NCOWS, because of your dislike of our search for the truth of the Old West, why are you still hanging around on our forum, and participating in our discussions?  Why do you continue to torture yourself, reading all our postings about authenticity?

Mustang Gregg, I think this applies to you...........dontcha think??

Bill

[Trap]

  Mustang Gregg,
  You are correct. In many ways NCOWS is a liberal organization, we have made allowances to make the game easier to play for many people. This may not be a good thing because of a couple of observations I've made about liberals.
  1 They try to justify one mistake by pointing out another.

  2 They are unwilling to accept the will of the majority through the democratic process.


                                                                                                   jt

[Mustang Gregg]

Well, I am still pondering re-joining.  There are some NCOWS clubs close.  One is 12 minutes from my house.

I reckon it was also a fair question.
How are some things "in common use" (that were not even invented yet) more accepted
than other things that ""were possibly used during the time period"?


And yes----It was a joke.    Many of ya get real steamed-up on this forum. 

MG

PS:  Wymore, Thanks for the cool hat picture & text.

[Terry Lane]

Good post Joss, thanks and take care.

[Wymore Wrangler]

And in a couple of weeks the shooting season starts, that's all that really matters, getting out and enjoying a Sunday with good friends...

[Iowa Wiley Stafford]

While out 'trolling' I decided to post a reply

Trap-
    Thank you for your clarification on the perceived 'backpeddling' issue.  As just an average 'boob' out here in the hinterlands, I would like to explain my previous position with a little more clarity.  IMHO, the average NCOWS shooter out there is probably experiencing some anxiety since the convention with much of the conversations, innuendo, and rumors that worked their way around at the convention and since about many issues, all going back to 'authenticity'.  If you all reread my earlier post, I called on much forethought about any other changes in our organization.  The average shooter starts to get a little nervous when such things as the banning of gun carts, elimination of all calibers except .45 and .44-40, banning of smokeless powder, banning of additional already approved firearms, changing of years of NCOWs, and more are spread about, with some of these items coming from the very top of the organization.  As a NCOWS member, I just like to know what direction the organization is heading, and if stirring the pot a little gets answers, then so be it.  This doesn't mean I am for short stroke kits, shotshell slides, or anything else banned at this time, or that I intend to just be a 'twit' and quit the group.  I think we have a great organization going here with all things that SASS isn't, but it also becomes a little difficult to entice new shooters to join when there is alot of bickering and perceived 'backpeddling' happening.  It makes it equally difficult when any questions are posted about ways to replace banned items such as shotshell slides are met with most of the replies being 'shotshell slides are illegal' and nothing else!  I call on all posters to at least read all the posts before wonderful 'nuggets' of information are shot forth.  Sorry if this seems a little like I am irritable, but it is still 3 weeks to the first shoot and I am getting an itchy trigger finger.               
                                    Thanks
                                                    IWS
(back to trolling....oops, can't, need to get back to work)

[Ornery Orr]

I vote that we ban bans!

[Iowa Wiley Stafford]

I'm with you, Ornery!

Amen, brother, Amen!

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy,

I'm just at my 1st renewal and so I can only speak from that experience.  I live in Independence, Missouri and my NCOWS info comes from the following sources.

The Shootist.  Official journal of the organization.  Kind of slow on getting news of the Congress out.

NCOWS boards here at CAS City.  Fast, but it gives strong weight to those who are internet inclined.  Several members of the Congress are regualr contributors.  Marshal Irish Dave, Deputy Marshal Joss House, Secretary Quick Fire [I think] and Judge Trap all visit often and respond to questions.  Other Senators and Posse Reps. are here too.

Personal conversations with KVC members including the Judge, a Senator - Grizzle Bear and a Posse Rep. Books O'Toole.

E[mails with other members, some in the congress and some just plain folks like me.

I have not heard many of the RUMORS going around.  I haven't heard anyone, anywhere proposing that gun carts be banned.  Or women competitors. Or any kind or style of hat.  [Might snicker at some, but that would just be me.  Heck, I snicker at some of my hats! ]  

I see lots of different ideas of what brings folks to NCOWS and don't see any effort to keep them from enjoying what they like.  I will not criticize anyone about what they wear to any NCOWS event.  Kept my mouth shut at one event where one guy showed up in black jeans, black modern shirt, black leather jacket with elastic cuffs and waistband, black modern cowboy hat & boots, buscadero rig.  Lordy, he missed level 1 by a mile, but it isn't my place to critize him.  I am part of the Original and I wear things that aren't quite right, but they are covered up and don't show, but I know!  Living in a glass house, it is not wise to throw rocks!

My reproduction 1873 Winchester is in 45LC.  Matches my SAA revolver.  Ok by me.  Ok by the approved list.  Checked before I bought either one.  Regret seling my Merwin Hulber, Sharps 22 4 barrel and 1887 lever shotgun marked AE Co.    Wasn't involved in CAS at the time.

Guess my final thought is wear the hat that you like.  Have fun!  Live & let live!  Big enough tent for us all.