two Guns competition

[Arcey]

If there's an NCOWS club nearby they'll have a 'Workin' Cowboy' class.  One pistol, one rifle, no shotgun, no guncart.

Even if there isn't, talking with the match director of a local monthly may land you permission to shoot that sort of class if you explain why you're asking.  Personally, I'd be kindah nervous about letting a new shooter reload a pistol on the clock but you never know.  As I understand it, NCOWS set it up for new shooters.  Guess they watch 'em close.

I've shot it once at a monthly, but I ain't a new shooter.  Ya feel a little slighted when everyone else is bustin' knockdowns with shotguns.  They had a shotgun alley where ya knocked 'em down from station ta station.  Not wanting to be totally left out, I grabbed a sledge hammer, ran down the alley 'n knocked 'em over with that..........

[Doc Shapiro]

I came back to add a few things to my post and there are 3 or 4 more since then! 

What I was going to add to my post is this...

The game is what it is.  It's not for everyone.  And it's not going to fit with what everyone is interested in. 

As it is, the game is a lot of fun.  Sure, there's room for improvement as there is in all things.  There are directions that I'd like to see the game go that it won't.  However, another game has come along that addresses some of those, so I play that too.

I expect you'll have a lot of fun.  I also expect that after you see it, you'll WANT to get a shotgun.  Getting another pistol or not is your option.  I expect you'll be allowed to reload one on the clock in order to finish the stage.  Otherwise, your scores won't be able to be tallied against the rest of the shooters unless you take a miss for each pistol target not engaged (25 seconds in penalties).

But in the scheme of things, these guns aren't very expensive.  You can get a used revolver for less than $400 with all the paperwork and transfer fees.  Possibly less than $350.  A shotgun could be even less than that. 

This really isn't an expensive hobby.  There are plenty more that are much much more expensive.

Doc

[Cyrille]

Thank you Mr. Arcey,
     But What I'm avocateing is a two stage competition w/ one [1] five shot group from the sidearm and a ten shot group from the rifle not a reloading stage and second five shot group from the sidearm.
 This idea however may not float and it may be that a reload and second five shot string is incorperated in the "stage." To that I would have no objection, but as you say You'd be kinda nervious and you would't be alone, I'm sure that is why for beginners, such as myself it would be a whole lot safer if only a fifteen shot beginners stage were allowed.

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[Cyrille]

To Doc Shapiro:
  It is most likely as you say Doc and it may well be that this idea of mine won't float but I thought I'd run it up the pole and see who salutes. Believe me, whether this suggestion takes hold or not I'll become active in this activity in the near future. right now I'm just testing the waters, so to speak, trying to decide which direction the stream is a flowing.
  When I do make my leap i fully intend very WET.

[Doc Shapiro]

Cyrille, so what's keeping you?  I bet there's a match somewhere nearby this coming weekend!

[Camille Eonich]

Cyrille, so what's keeping you?  I bet there's a match somewhere nearby this coming weekend!

Ditto what Doc said.  Get to a match!!  You'll love it.

[L.G.]

What's this? One pistol and one rifle?   Gee, and the thought of Josey Wale's matches are dancin in heads, 4 or 5 pistols, no rifle or shotgun.  2 pistols on the hip, 2 in shoulder rigs, and one in the belt.  Start with hands full of packages, and you know the rest.

[Arcey]

Hell, L.G.

Wrote one callin' for a third pistol.  The thing was staged on a table.  If someone didn't have a third we had a loaner AND free ammo for it.  Offered to let 'em borrow one of mine if they wanted.  I carry three on the cart 'n usually have another in the truck.  I still had a fistful of folks bitchin' 'n gripin'.  I can imagine whut the reaction would be to four or five pistols............

[Cyrille]

To Doc Shapiro
  Somewhere's yes Nearby, 'don't think so I'' ll look at the  state schedule and see though.

[Cyrille]

Nope Doc, not til next month. C'est la vie

[Mustang Gregg]

Howdy, Pards!

  I reckon it could be done this way-----(really)

1.  You could go to the line with 1 loaded six-gun & 1 loaded rifle.
2.  Shoot the stage as written but use ONLY them 2 guns.
3.  Take 5 misses for six-gun & however many fer the shotgun.
4.  Or reload the six-gun on the clock to get yer other 5 shots off when the time came.
5.  That would make it on par with the rest of the 4 gun shooters.

Not tryin' to be funny----Jus' realistic.

MG

[Cuts Crooked]

Actually this is already being done at a few SASS clubs. The Zen Shootists, in Iowa, offers "Working Cowboy" as an option and it is surprizingly popular! The idea behind it initially was to offer a catagory that new shooters could compete in without the enormous investment in guns that is required for the other catagories. And it worked...with a surprizing twist! Quite a few oldtimers at the game have "found" the catagory and find that they really like it, for various reasons. Not as many guns to pack around, not as much time spent maintaining guns, and a real biggie...cleaning them up is quicker too! And to top it off there are actually some pards who like the more "authentic" feel and appearence of only packing two shootin irons! The catagory is only scored against itself, and yes, a special "scenerio" is written into the stage instructions for the WC competitors...it works and suprizingly well! The only time the WC shooter has a reload on the clock is when a reload is in the stage instructions for the rest of the shooters too.

When I'm busy being gainfuly employed I work weekends and nights a lot, so shooting WC is something that I really like because I don't have to spend nearly as much time cleaning my BP encrusted guns! I think I remember Triggerlock shooting this class too, another BP shooter who has to travel a long way to get to the Zen Shootists range!

[Big John Denny]

Well, at the Christmas shoot of the Mule Camp Cowboys we only shot one pistol, rifle and shotgun. I believe it was done to speed up the stages to allow more time for the Christmas lunch and annual club awards. Everybody had a good time shooting the stages and it did take significantly less time for the posses to shoot the match. It was "different" and a change from the standard four gun stages.

I would think the idea of allowing starting new shooters to shoot one pistol and a rifle, without "miss" penalties for not engaging the other 5 pistol targets or the shotgun targets, to get them started in the game is a good thing.

Several clubs around the country have already incorporated a "working cowboy" type category, and the world has not yet stopped turning. From feedback I've read the shooters are having fun, and even some old time shooters have done it as a change from the standard four gun events.

I don't think it would be a good thing to do at State, regional or higher matches, but for a local match trying to get more shooters in the game I don't see anything earth shaking about it.

You wouldn't have to specailly design any stages for the two gun shooters, they would only shoot five pistol targets and whatever number of rifle targets are on each stage. They would only be scored against other shooters in the same category anyway.

After all, when SASS originally started only one pistol was used. The shotguns and second pistol came later on.

[Cyrille]

My thanks to Mr. Cuts Crooked, Mr. Denny and Mr. Gregg, This is what I'm looking for, feedback, and suggestions on how the competition might be run. Thanks too to everyone who took the time to reply to this topic I rteally appreciate the responses. Now to get down to work---
   Lets hear from others who may have ideas or opinions to share as well as any comments from those who have already responded and may have more ideas or comments to add to this thread.
 

[Hemlock Mike]

Ten years ago when my pard & I started CAS at the local range,  We HOPED the people coming would have a revolver and rifle ---PERIOD.  We kept the stages simple and provided shotgun for one stage.  As we grew, two revolvers, rifle and shotgun PLUS pocket pistol became the norm.  Someone could always provide a missing gun to a pard.

Getting started is a big cash cow now.  Help the new pards.

Mike

[Cyrille]

Mr. Mike, my sentiments exactly! That's why I like the Cleche K.I.S. {Keep it simple.} and the rest will follow, "If we build it, they will come."

[Coyote Tim]

I recently got into CAS and I think the initial cost scares some people away. I'm one of those people who doesn't like borrowing other people's equipment for fear of possibly screwing it up so I pretty much stayed away until I could afford 4 guns. If they had 2 gun matches, I probably would have got into it much sooner.

[Irish Dave]

Just saw this thread and thought I'd add a couple of cents worth.

I think Cuts did a pretty good job of explaining the situation.  However, just want to clarify a couple of issues:

1) NCOWS really isn't just designed for "new shooters." We have a number of experienced and downright impressive shooters in our ranks by anyone's standards.

2) The Working Cowboy Class was designed with two purposes in mind. One is to be more authentic to the period rather than having everyone walking around with an arsenal strapped on. History shows us that a weapon or two was more typical of the normal cowboy or even townsmen. And secondly, it would be a less expensive way for newcomers to join the sport.

3) WC shooters are scored only against themselves.

4) WC shooters shoot the same course of fire as other shooters, they just omit the second pistol and the shotgun -- no penalties, no added misses etc.

5) For a variety of reasons, WC has become one of the most popular classes in NCOWS -- for veterans and beginners alike.

Thanks.

[Cyrille]

Thanks, Irish Dave:
       I like the way you expanded on the WC senerio, contest I believe that this idea may be catching on over in the SASS camp keep yer fingers crossed.

[E.R.Beaumont]

Greetings Pards and Pardettes.

Cy, Pard I think you are trying too hard here just relax and have a cup a decaf, we really are all on your side, we are just having a "failure to communicate".  A match is made up out of stages, or shooting scenearios.  These stages consist, usualy, of ten pistol targets, eight to ten rifle targets, and four to six shotgun targets.  Everyone shoots the same targets, in the same order.  A match consists of from four to twelve stages. 

Way back when, the folks out west here were toying with a catagory for only one pistol, with shotgun and rifle.  We were calling it Classic Cowboy, the Pards back east in Ga were experimenting with a restricted catagory they were calling Classic Cowboy.  The name got used to described the new catagory and became a recognized SASS catagory.

I can see a need for a Working Hand, Wrangler, or Sidekick catagory, any of these would work for a title, One Pistol with five rounds, The rifle with proscribed number of rounds, and shotgun or not.  I am like you I don't want to be borrowing guns and or ammo from some one.  I don't always carry a spare pistol and ammo either. I would not want to be a pard who had to depend on borrowing something for every match.

I would think that it would become a popular catagory, beginners would not feel left out, Elders could take it easy and still shoot a match, Folks with an injury could shoot it on 'bad' days.  I would also see it as a minimum costumeing requirement catagory.

One way to overcome the gun deficet is to pardner up with another hand and each get half, one gets a pistol and a rifle and the other gets a pistol and a shotgun.  The two of you would have to go to matches togeather, or at least all the guns gotta go. 

Our hobby is more expensive than some but cheaper than others.  Golf, Water skiing, Trap, Skeet, Clays, way expensive hobbies.  Heck a weekend snow skiing can cost the same as a shotgun.

That is all I think I know.
Regards, Beaumont