38-55 loads, Rollin' and Tumblin'

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

"I was rollin' and tumblin', I cried the whole night long"....A venerable old blues song by Mckinley Morganfield, aka Muddy Waters, that could have been written about my first 38-55 loads...  maybe ya'll can tell me what I did wrong?

I recently started loading my own and one of my pet projects is building an accurate black powder 38-55.  I took my first 20 and went to the Ben Avery range and shot at 50 yards to check out the ammo.  Surprisingly, the bullets were all hitting in the black 8" circle.  I say surprising because they were tumbling or spinning or sideways or whatever--they produced oblong holes and rips in the paper.  No great groups, of course.  I was using my new H&$ Target model single shot with the 28" heavy target barrel.

Here are the ingredients:  I used once-shot winchester brass; lightly compressed loads of Schuetzen 3f (38 gr or so); large rifle primers; and Buffalo Arms 250 gr. 20:1, SPG lubed bullets.  (I used light compression because Swiss isn't supposed to like great compression, and Schuetzen is probably closer to S. than Goex.)  I put a thin cardboard wad on top of the powder, lubed the cases, etc. 

I used a Lee single stage and RCBS Legacy dies: sizing, expanding and seating.  I hand loaded the black using a scale after I figured out the right volume, with a 24" drop tube.  Finally, I used a Lee factory crimp die (not carbide) to put a small crimp on the cartridge.  I should mention that I've been loading .45's and .38's on a Dillon 550 and they shoot pretty well.

My instincts tell me that I need to up the volume of powder and get higher compression.  I've also ditched the Lee for a crimping die from Redding in the belief that you get what you pay for.

I'm cross-posting this to the Open Range, hoping that the centuries of experience here and on that board will tell me what I'm doing wrong...  Thanks very much for any suggestions ya'll can provide. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy J.D.

I have a new boolit design comming out.  I'd like you to give it a try.  It is a true Big Lube^tm twin groove bullet designed expressly for the 38-55.  In the meantime, please slug your bore if you haven't already done so.

Also, please take a long look and maybe a measurement or two of your bullets before and after loading.  They could be deforming in the dang crimp die.  The LEE die won't do that but others will.  I've found that the LEE carbide factory crimp die will not deform bullets or crush brass when set up according to directions.

Your choice of powder certainly covers any question of quality well enough.  Actual compression is less important than the fact that the charge is compressed.  Too much compression isn't good either.  The card wad under the bullet is the correct idea.  Just make sure there's no lube on the back of your bullets that allow the card to "glue" its self to the back of the bullet.  This causes flyers.

Hope this helps.

DD-DLoS

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks, DD, that helps a lot.  Your sugestions are great.  I'm really looking forward to trying out your bullets.  I've been bugging Mason about getting some.  Actually, I wish I had gotten in on the first order for the molds, but ce la vie.  If you do them commercially I'll be the first in line. 

I'll get the calipers out and check the cartridge measurements and slug the bore.  I don't know if it makes a difference, but Lee doesn't make carbide factory crimp dies for the 38-55.  They're the same design, but they're made of steel.  I think that the only difference in using them is to be sure the case is lubed.

Thanks again,
JD

[Lars]

So long as your bullets are not somehow getting deformed, which is not a common occurence, the first thing to check is that they are the correct diameter for your rifle's bore.

The bullets Buffalo Arms sells are typically excellently cast, using really good moulds and casters, and accurately sized. I doubt that there is any deformation of the bullets you received. Since you are shooting a single shot rifle, you can always try some without crimping, just with finger seating into cases expanded to the diameter of the bullet.

Card wads under the bullet is quite standard in excellent BP loads -- highly unlikely there is a problem there. Do verify that the card wads are as large as the bullets and that both are large enough to fill the grooves.

Finally, visit the BPCR BBS, at www.bpcr.net and inquire of some real experts there. Alternatively, call Buffalo Arms and chat with one of the really skilled BPCR shooters there. Lots of folks use the gun and bullets you have and get excellent results. In any case, stick with bullets known to give excellent BPCR results.

Lars

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks, Lars--all very sound advice.  On the Open Range someone suggested that I not resize the shells after firing them--leave them fire formed.  I'll try that, also.

Here's a scan of the boolit with the SPG removed, and a commercial Winchester bullet.  The measurements of the base of the bullets may actually be about 1/1000th bigger.

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/38-55scan.jpg

The OAL for the two finished rounds is very similar.

[Lars]

Yea, I shoulda mentioned using fire formed hulls -- that is what I do exclusively in my old single shot. I do crimp mine because it is a hunting rifle -- however, the crimping is simply to hold the bullet firmly down onto the powder -- the bullets are already firmly seated on a card wad by fingers.

Some BPCR shooters don't even seat the bullets until ready to shoot them. They keep the fully prepared bullets in protective containers, ditto for the loaded cases, with powder held in place by card wad. Read some of the old descriptions of what schutzen fans did with their guns and ammo -- they were/are a real nitpicky bunch.

Sometimes use of fire-formed cases needs a slightly larger bullet, so that the bullets are a nice friction fit into the case. That way, the bullets are centered in the case, which is centered in the chamber, which should be nicely centered on the bore.

Lars

[TAkaho kid]

Hello Yellowhammer,

There are many many good traditional bullet designs out there that will work just fine. The important thing is the internal barrel dimensions. Have you slugged the bore? 38-55 is one of those cartridges that has bore dimensions all over the place. A good 38-55 load to start with is listed in Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe's book on reloading for BP Rifles: "SPG Black reloading Powder Primer"

You can find it here: http://www.blackpowderspg.com/products_body.html

ALso talk with the folks on the BPCR.NET Forums:http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

Once dialed in the 38-55 is a tack driver. CHECK THAT BORE!

Hope this helps.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks again, folks.  This is a very helpful community.  TAkaho, I'll check out the book.  I spend a lot of time on the bpcr forum and others, learning as much as I can.  I reckon I need to get to a fishing store and get some soft lead sinkers, check that bore. 

Lars, I ordered some slightly bigger boolits a few days ago-- .380's as opposed to the .377's.  I enjoy being nitpicky with these cartridges.  I even hand clean and wipe each one after loading.  But of course the Real Fun is when I'm at the range and touch off a booming, smoking round.  All the semi-auto shooters jump!

[Lars]

  But of course the Real Fun is when I'm at the range and touch off a booming, smoking round.  All the semi-auto shooters jump!

Yea!! Years ago I often did all my sighting in and load development shooting at a public range. Some days the guns were C&Bs or BP cartridge. The boom and smoke always impressed some, irritated some. The group sizes with good loads and guns often we better than what some of the folks shooting modern guns and loads were doing. Properly loaded, properly functioning BP guns are no handicap for most shooting, maybe lots more than most shooting.

Let us know how those 0,380 bullets work. I keep eying 38-55s. Maybe someday a Browning Traditional Hunter in 38-55 will come by when I got some extra cash. That is one rifle I have always shot well, sometimes better than the owner.

Lars

[TAkaho kid]

I found my "SPG Reloading Primer"!! This is the load SPG & Mike Venturino suggest:

Again Vintage bores may take bullets .379 or larger while moden can run .375 to .377 (Slug the bore)

Your favorite brass (they used Winchester)
Federal 210 primer
Neck sized and belled with .376 expander
Saeco #375248 (250 gr. cast 1:30) sized .377
Lubed with SPG
Milk carton wad
OAL 2.533

Another good bullet is the Lyman 375428

Hope this helps!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My son attended a military type shoot in Al;berta a few years ago.  At the end of the shoot, he tried out his new Pedersoli Tryon, .50.  When he shot, the range became VERY QUIET.   Kristian lifted his head off the stock, looked around and proclaimed  'Smokeless is just a fad!"  Steve Garbe is right!

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks again.  This is pretty close to what I'm loading--same primer and shells, same weight and dimensions for the bullet.  The one difference is the OAL.  My Lyman Handbook says the max OAL is 2.510.  My cartridges are coming out around 2.482, about the same as the commercial ones. 

I really like this caliber.  It doesn't knock my shoulder out of joint, and I believe that if I can master the loads, it will shoot long and flat. 

Lars, I do my black powder shooting at a public range. Same thing--cap & ball and cartridge.  It stands out from the usual black ballistic nylon, AR-15/AK, Ninja crowd.   It's a lot of fun when the wind takes a big cloud of smoke their way, heh heh.

I found my "SPG Reloading Primer"!! This is the load SPG & Mike Venturino suggest:
Your favorite brass (they used Winchester)
Federal 210 primer
Neck sized and belled with .376 expander
Saeco #375248 (250 gr. cast 1:30) sized .377
Lubed with SPG
Milk carton wad
OAL 2.533

[Hemlock Mike]

My pard got one of those rifles and quickly found that 0.377" slugs tumbled even at 25 yards.  Even jacketed wouldnt work.

He now shoots fireformed cases with 0.379" slugs and it's much better.  PS-- He's shooting that new fangled powder what don't smoke.

Mike

[Dakota Widowmaker]

If I shoot .379" in 30:1, I get pretty good results.

I slimmed some down to .377" and the groups closed up some.

I have a custom mold on order from Mountain Molds to seat the nose further forward and increase case capacity.

I do pre-compress my powder .080" with a .030" milk carton wad. (so, the powder is only .050" compressed)

I have noticed little if any value in going with an extra heavy bullet. I can seat my bullets out to 2.68" before touching the rifling...but that makes my Winchester model 94 a single shot.

I get crap alot from folks for recommending Pyrodex Select...but, for me and my 38-55 rifle, it works like a charm.

[john boy]

JD, here are the barrel spec's for the H&R 38-55:
Barrel - 28" with a 1:18 rifling twist
•   Bore – 0.373 and 0.379 grooves
•   Actual: 0.374 and 0.378 ... for mine

What you have is a conflict with the 1:18 twist and the shallow groove depth (.002).  The bullet is not being sealed in the barrel and the air is causing the bullet to tumble.  So, you have to use a SOFT bullet (say, 1:30) that is 379 to 380 to seal it tightly in the bore up against the grooves.

I'm working up some BP loads now with the Lyman 378674.  They'll drop from the mold at 379 ... no guarantees yet!