McKeever shotgun shell holder - 17 Mar - pics

Pony Racer · March 11, 2006, 06:57:55 PM

It worked!!

Pics

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/mikeb35/mcvr-3.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/mikeb35/mcvr-2.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/mikeb35/mcvr-1.jpg

Pards and pardettes thinking about getting new shotgun shell holders.

The shells are somewhat loose - so need to redo webbing - but due to design of box - they still stay put!!

I need to mess with my belt a little and see how it fits!!

I would just have to remember to flip open the boxes before I start shooting.

What do ya'll think??

PR

Ottawa Creek Bill · March 11, 2006, 07:01:42 PM

Pony Racer,
If you can document their existance (in that configuration), go to it....

Bill

Mustang Gregg · March 11, 2006, 07:25:52 PM

Pony Racer:
That sounds pretty neat for a shotgun shell holder.
How big was a McKeever ammo box?
I've been surfin' the sites & I think I know which one you mean.
Post a pictue when you get 'em done.
I have been lookin' for somethin' like that so's I don't wear a shotgun belt when I'm in uniform.
Unless you're at an NCOWS shoot, you shouldn't have to document it.
Respectfully,
Mustang Gregg

Pony Racer · March 11, 2006, 08:08:40 PM

Roger that ya'll

The Mckeever's I believe were built to hold 20-30 45-70 cartridges - so 4-6 shotgun shells should be ok. The boxes maybe a little longer than original (if I go for holding 6 shells) but since the only cowboy shooting I've done so far is SASS I am not worrying about authenticity to the same degree.

I'm going to do more reasearch and probably talk to some leathersmiths in near future.

I'll keep you posted

PR

Old Top · March 11, 2006, 08:14:48 PM

Pony Racer,

You may wish to look at the rules for SASS, I do not think that you can have pouch with loops. I think that it is a great Idea, I have been using a Dyer pouch for my shotgun shells.

Old Top

Pony Racer · March 11, 2006, 08:49:12 PM

Old Top just reread the applicable section twice.

I have to think that the rule was poorly worded.

Why - How could a flapped pouch with or without loops have any advantage over the cartridge slides worn on belts today?

If I just have the flap come over the top but have a leathersmith not make sides - I accomplish the look without making a pouch.

The Mckeever box is certainly period correct and still so slow not sure why it seems to be not allowed to be used.

I have asked for clarification and how to ask for rule change if necessary - will update as I found out

PR

Old Top · March 11, 2006, 09:46:06 PM

Pony Racer,

I know after I posted I went to the rule book and looked, actually the McKeever box is not a pouch it is a hinged strap with sides, when the flap is dropped it would look like two shotgun slides one on the top of the other. I may have to study an play with this a bit also. Looked at my reproduction McKeever and it may work if you cut the threads between cartridge loops, but with the 12 gauge I do not beleive that you will get the top and bottom to close but it is worth a shot. Please keep me informed.

Old Top

Pony Racer · March 12, 2006, 12:34:25 PM

Old Top what my thought is is to not have shotgun shells on each side due to the exact issue you brought up.

The McKeevers I look at, comfortably fit 10 45-70 shells on each piece (ie top and bottom) - so I would think you could get at minimum 4 shotgun shells in one piece. I would then leave the top piece (becomes the flap that when opened becomes the bottom piece) empty.

The set-up I am considering would be close to my civilian shotgun rig now. I have a 45-70 web belt with shotgun slides on it. the slides are help in place by having 6 45-70 shells in the middle then the shotgun slides (each holding 6) and then 45-70 ammo again on the right and left sides past the shotgun slides. While a bit heavy - It looks great and is very functional and does not move.

My plan for the "converted" McKeever boxes would be the same as the above with a military Mills belt in blue vice my civilian rig which is just plain web tan with brown leather to go with my brown leather shotgun slides.

I have an original Mills belt that while not in 45-70 would work great now as the Mills belt - I would just need to get some Krag ammo for it to keep the McKeever boxes in place - hmmmmmm what agood reason to buy another gun:))!!

Can't have good ammo for a gun you do not posess!!

PR

Pony Racer · March 14, 2006, 06:02:15 AM

Old Top and others....

I have gotten the go ahead from the RO committee to move forward with project.

I still have design work to do and a leathersmith to find for this project too

But now no worries about being told I had something made that I can not use.

PR

Trailrider · March 14, 2006, 09:30:20 AM

Quote from: Ottawa Creek Bill on March 11, 2006, 07:01:42 PM
Pony Racer,
If you can document their existance (in that configuration), go to it....

Bill

PR,

I've been looking in some of the sources I have on hand, and you might want to try to find a copy of R. Stephen Dorsey's book, "Indian War Cartridge Pouches, Boxes and Carbine Boots". On pp. 121-124, there are several "King's Patten" "cartridge boxes". While they weren't accepted by the U.S. Army, they were obviously of "military pattern". The one shown on p. 124 is for 20 ga., probably with the 1881 Trapdoor "forager" in mind, but it wouldn't be hard to make one in 12 ga.

When open, the bottom part folds down in a manner similar to a McKeever, but without a rod hinge, just the continuation of the leather. There are side pieces which are fixed to the side of the fold-down piece, and fold out flat when the box is open. A finial stud is attached to these side pieces, and there are a pair of straps, one on each end of the box, which hook over the studs when the box is folded up closed. A large flap folds over the top of the whole thing, fastening to another finial on the bottom of the closed box.

The thing to keep in mind about "authenticity" when it comes to some of these accoutrements is that a good saddler sergeant could make up about anything, and company commanders were REAL lenient about the use of non-regulation equipent...in the field!

Hoping this is of some interest!

Pony Racer · March 14, 2006, 10:12:41 AM

RCJ and Trailrider - tks for the info - it is of great interest and always a bit amazing of the various things made to try to be more tactical.

I am going to buy a repro mckeever to play with a little before finalizing what I want.

I figure spend about 50.00 or so now will help me later

Trailrider do you or someone you would reccommend make Mckeever's already.

My intial thoughts on this would be to eliminate part of the top edge and have the stud to fasten the flap just on that piece so that when opened the shells could clear that edge.

Or some of the Mckeever's have what looks like a ridge so that the shells stick out a little so that the top edge of the box does not get in the way.

Part of the reason I wanted clarification from SASS were actually two rules - 1 - no loops in pouches, and 2 - Shotgun belts and slides conturing to the body.

However, with the pm I received from the RO committee I have gotten the go ahead to do "build" a McKeever for 12 guage using the various styles of the McKeever boxes.

tks

PR

Pony Racer · March 14, 2006, 12:16:29 PM

RCJ we think alike - I saw the cabellas one.

PR

Old Top · March 15, 2006, 01:46:54 AM

Pony Racer,

Checked my McKever Box and with a little cutting of the sewing holding the loops you may be able to cut two or three rows of stitches and have it fit a 12 gage. With a little bit of leather on the hinge side of the bottom so they sit paralel (sp) rather then the V as you look from the side. Might be a way to do it or at least give you some idea of what to do.

Old Top

Pony Racer · March 16, 2006, 08:54:55 AM

I should receive my mckeever from cabelas this friday.

I will post pics somtime this weekend on progress.

PR

Ol Gabe · March 16, 2006, 04:22:27 PM

Just for the sake of discussion...
Instead of trying to create something 'new', why not stay with what the McKeever was designed for in the first place, 45-70 cartridges, and simply shoot 'shot' in them ala the TD used by the Camp Cooks as a Foragers Gun. I recall a discussion on the old TFS a year or two ago where that was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it would be authentic for NCOWS, perfect for GAF and give you tons of Style Points for SASS, besides, a TD Shotgun would be so cool in your armament! I imagine a Coastie would have had access to one anyway, right? I'm guessing there are a lot of 'shot-out' TD's available for this purpose, might be wrong but it sounds like a feasible idea.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe

Pony Racer · March 17, 2006, 09:06:53 PM

Gabe nice thought but the Trapdoor shotguns I see would still require a redone mcKeever for the 20 guage shotshell.

Updated my post with new info

PR

Pony Racer · March 20, 2006, 08:33:20 AM

Set-up does not work with web belt - at least the McKeevers from cabelas.

I am ordering a fair weather christian belt from Carrico Leather and have ordered another mcKeever.

Borrowed a civil war pistol belt from Brother for shoot coming weekend so I can try out the McKeevers and will post pics of set-up once I get second McKeever with that belt.

Wahooooo - between this and my conversions finishing up and waiting for my 1887 lever gun - I have been in heavy anticipation.

PR

Trailrider · March 20, 2006, 11:24:43 AM

Quote from: Pony Racer on March 14, 2006, 10:12:41 AM

(snip)

Trailrider do you or someone you would reccommend make Mckeever's already.

PR,

Haven't done it so far. Biggest pain would be the endcaps on the hinge rod, plus the spherical finial. For my military holsters I turn the finials using a carbide lathe tool I had ground to the exact profile of the originals. Could probably gin something up for the caps and the finial using regular lathe tools, but if it got popular, I reckon I'd have to have two more sets of tools ground.

S&S firearms... www.ssfirearms.com ...shows a .45-70 McKeever on page 69 of their 2006 catalog, for $35.00. I don't know if those are original or repro. Regardless, doubt I could make 'em for that! BTW, not trying to do myself out of business, but they also show a M1874 Dyer pouch a LOT cheaper than I can offer them! Theirs has the horizontal, pointed end escutcheon plate, a la Benicia (California) Arsenal, whereas I use the Watervleit vertical oval plate.

Pony Racer · March 20, 2006, 12:39:51 PM

Wow their McKeever's are 10.00 under cabelas and cabeles are Triple KKK brand but imported from China.

The only thing about the Cabela's - the stitching is very tight and strong - so great for use once you get enough of the stitching out to use with 12 guage ammo.

I wonder were S&S gets theirs from?

PR

Trailrider · March 20, 2006, 05:52:48 PM

Quote from: Pony Racer on March 20, 2006, 12:39:51 PM
Wow their McKeever's are 10.00 under cabelas and cabeles are Triple KKK brand but imported from China.

The only thing about the Cabela's - the stitching is very tight and strong - so great for use once you get enough of the stitching out to use with 12 guage ammo.

I wonder were S&S gets theirs from?

PR

That's too bad. I've not seen the actual products. Sounds like they either had them stored too long without treatment with something like Lexol(R), or never treated the leather at all. The price being as low at it is, tends to make me believe these items are made overseas. That's the problem with that. They may be cheap, but...they're cheap! Good to hear about it, though. I guess I won't be recommending them.

BTW, because the Roby M1860 Light Cavalry Saber is a scarce variant, I am reluctant to use it for color guard duty, drills, etc. So I ordered a Dixie Gun Works replica, Officer's Model. Be interesting to see the quality... I will report as soon as it arrives.