Question about the Rogers & Spencer revolver

[Scattered Thumbs]

From what I gathered the Rogers & Spencer revolver arrived to late to participate in the Civil War and apparently was never issued to troops until the Government sold them in 1902.

Is this correct or were they ever issued to any units during the Indian Wars period?
Also, was the whole production affected to military contract or did some of them arrived to the civilian market (before 1901 that is)?

I have an Euroarms copy of the Rogers & Spencer. I like it, and have used it in the Mariette class(replica revolvers) of M.L.A.I.C. events. But it sort of bothers me that such a good percussion revolver only hit the market when there were already autoloading pistols around.

Any further information would be appreciated.

[Major 2]

I Read somewhere, and I don't recall the source , they were not issued, early shipment in 1865 remained in US Armories.
Some did find their way to Civilians, but by and large they were bought by Bannerman's.
As late as 1909, they could be bought from that catalog for $0.75 ( that's right 75 cents ) still wrapped in the Factory oil paper and box.
Occasionally one of those will turn up at auction.

I have a reprint of that catalog.

It is an enigma... a fine gun ahead of it's time , to late & obsolete in short order....

[Scattered Thumbs]

Thanks Major 231.

Meanwhile I also found this:
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/rogers-spencer-revolver.htm

Apparently from the 800 sold commercially some even found their way into the Civil War.

I feel better.

[Major 2]

That's neat !

one question though
" The inside of LEFT GRIP reads "E. Lambert VOL 30 MASS carried this Revolver in Civil War November 14, 1861 August 15, 1866"

he carried it in 61 ?... but,  could not have acquired it until late 63

Manufactured in 63  ? (Rogers & Spencers were produced from 1863-65)

Hmmmmmmmmm !

[Scattered Thumbs]

Maybe he's just referring to his own time in the CW.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

That would be my guess,there, ST. Not the time he carried the revolver, but his service time.......Buck

[Major 2]

Priced on Request   

I bet that bad boy is gonna run a healthy 4 figures....
and be the center piece of somebody's collection.

[St. George]

Rogers and Spencer produced the Pettingill...

They did have their own design and in September of 1864 submitted two revolvers to Ordnance as samples - requesting a Contract of 5000 revolvers @ $12 each.

They were turned down on September 17.

Applying again on November 29, 1864 - the Chief of Ordnance - Brigadier General Dyer - accepted the initial offer.

Deliveries were set for January 1865 - with 500 being the initial shipment, followed by 500 per month.

The initial delivery was received on the 30th of January, 1865 - and the contract completed on September 26, 1865.

They were delivered too late for issue during actual wartime use and were kept in storage - with some being sold off to Bannerman in 1901 when he purchased almost 30,000 Civil War era revolvers from the New York State Arsenal - including 4,982 Rogers and Spencers revolvers @ .25.27 cents each.

That said - the provenance of the one in the ad would need to seriously be looked at, since it was not uncommon at all for veteran soldiers - late in life - to buy a souvenir of their Service and inscribe/scratch their dates or unit or any other thing that struck their fancy.

Given that it's got a three-digit number - and the first 500 were made and sold to the Government in January of 1865 - gives one pause to marvel at the actuality of 'that' piece being available for sale -  since it was securely in Uncle Sam's hands - newly-accepted and inventoried.

But - Hope Springs Eternal - and for some would-be collectors who subscribe to the policy of 'Woulda if They Coulda' - 'provenance' means nothing.

Until they try to sell it...

Scouts Out!

[Scattered Thumbs]

OK.  Next question, were there really 800 sold commercially? If so when?
I'm wasn't thinking of buying the one in the add anyways. For starters I live in the wrong continent for that. 
I was just interesting in finding out if any R & S were acctually sold around their production time.

[St. George]

That '800' number isn't a 'hard' number - it's just 'thought to be around 800'.

The Ordnance Contract would've started at '1' - and they were pretty well spoken for - so with no idea what actual production capacity might've been for that firm - making a new revolver design -there's no way to know if they'd siphon off a few to sell commercially.

I rather doubt it, since they were keen on filling the Contract and making Ordnance happy with their newly-designed weapon.
No doubt were hoping for another Contract to follow, so that sort of thing may or may not have happened in the midst of their efforts.

Quien Sabe'?

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Scattered Thumbs]

So, basically I came up empty. Darn!
Well, I'm backwards enough to still be using a percussion revolver in the early 1900s.
Afterall I'm using a mid 1970s .38 SPL S&W K38 in ISSF Center fire pistol instead of a race gun autoloader in .32 caliber.
Also, I'm still shooting 9mm target events with a Luger made around 1937.

[French Jack]

The information that I have ferreted out over the years has been that the initial 5000 run was contracted and delivered to the U.S. Army.  They (R&S)  requested another additional contract to fill, but were denied.
They subsequently made up several hundred and sold them where they could to use up parts and stock on hand.  These were some of the ones that were factory converted to cartridge weapons.
The ones later converted for Bannerman show a different method of conversion.  Both styles were shown in McDowell's book on conversions. 
I have seen examples of each style, and there is additional "proof" in the serial number range involved for each style.
I just wish I could afford one.  I have been drooling over an original for several years at Friendship.  I wish the owner would sell it so as to remove temptation from me.

Empirical evidence is difficult to get, as I was told by my grandfather who was a First Sargent in the Spanish American War, that some were issued to troops when they found out the 38 Colt was nearly useless against the Moros.  I have seen period photos of some of the troops that even show some issued the old Whitney C&B.  I suspect until the numbers of 45's caught up to the demand, there were a lot of interim "obsolete ordnance" in use by the troops.

[will52100]

I don't know and don't have any proff, but it wouldn't be that difficult for a friend in the armory to "missplace" one of the 5000 and give or sell it to a budy.  Especialy during war time.

[St. George]

When there were better revolvers readily available in the supply channels?

Hardly.

By the time the Rogers and Spencer showed up in time - in 1865  - the Colt and Remington revolvers were the top of the line, and were available without stealing them.

Then, as now - misappropriation was looked at askance, and the delivered arms went into storage, as available records indicate.

There wasn't the same high demand for personal small arms by that time, as there had been at war's start, since the tide had turned and the Union's production capacity was working efficiently - putting more than enough weapons into the hands of its soldiers.

One can always think 'woulda if they coulda' - but proof is what counts, and that's why 'provenance' brings a high asking price...

Scouts Out!

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

A Fourth type has been found!

The third type Is owned by Tubac. it has a cylinder/recoil shield that are removeable on the order of the R &D but with slots for a firing pin and recesses in the recoil shield for the brass cartridge rim. the rims are what drives the two piece ste up pretty ingenious. I wish I had taken pictures of Tubac's pistol when it was here.

The pistol below  is the 4th type of conversion of R &S that I have seen. I bought this on Auction arms last Saturday. It is listed as a 44 Rim Fire (Henry). but if it is it is the first R.F. I have ever seen that has a firing pin, most just use the hammer flat with little modification. Also the chambers do not have the R.F. notches either.

This is a quality Conversion and was acquired by the seller in South Texas Border Town of Del Rio a few years ago. It has been in his collection since. It appears to be a very professional conversion,(look at the way the frame is relieved so the gate will open, and how the recoil Shield is attached.)
No doubt this gun came from Mexico. She isn't a safe queen, nor one of Bannermans that is pristine from non use. This old girl worked all day every day. The cylinder pin is a replacement I'm sure.

[Tubac]

Charlie,
What an interesting revolver. Is it center fire? Are you gonna fire it?
I've read that some of these pistols were used in the Mexican Revolution.
You keep coming up with neat guns.
Tubac

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Tubac,
So do you Pard. That R & S you have is very unique. So is the Whitney.

I PM'd you tonight with that misdirected message from the other day.

I'm going to check her out to see if she can be shot. You know me I like bringing these old Girls back to life.

This Pistol came from Del Rio TX some years ago. It appears to be a 4 digit S/N but I can't really tell. It has a firing pin but the seller says it's Rim Fire. I guess I'll find out when it gets here. I'm betting C.F. because of the firing pin in the frame and no rim fire notches in the chambers. But I could be surprised.

It would be the first conversion I've ever seen that was Rim fire WITH a firing pin. It appears to be a very professional conversion.

Worked all afternoon in the shop getting things ready for the reamers to get here. I'm ready!  Bring them on Clymer, Tubac needs his Whitney and his Remy back.

[Tubac]

Gents,
These photo's of the conversion cylinder on my R&S will show what Charlie was talking about.
Tubac

[Tubac]

Sorry onlt one photo came throught.
Here's the other one.
Tubac

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

My Rogers & Spencer 44 Rim Fire Conversion came today.
She is fer sure a 44 Henry Rim Fire Conversion. She is the first Rim Fire conversion that I have ever seen that uses a floating firing pin  To detonate the cartridges. Usually the hammer flat is used. Not so on this pup. Really nice and well thought out conversion. She is very dirty inside, but she has matching S/N 536X. as pitted as she is i get a Shine in the bore. She was dirty and i cleand trhe bore and she shines, there are some areas of light pitting, but nothing that'll keep her from coming back to life. She appears to have the original grips , not cracked, but has some scratches and a few notches cut in them. She needs a good scrubbing inside and there is a century and better of gun dirt in side. Her hand spring is weak, and her main spring will lift the bed of a dump truck, but she's one tough old girl. Her recoil shield is pretty neat and thick it is knurled at the forward edge and the rear edge. The gate is held in place closed by an internal pin in the recoil face of the frame. One screw holds the recoil plate in the frame.

I'll get some pictures up of her details soon.