Merged: Reduced recoil 45-70 ammo

[Dick Dastardly]

I've had a request for a reduced recoil Big Lube^tm bullet for the 45-70 to be shot in Plainsman events.  Here's what I'm thinkn'. . . 

Whut if I took a PRS Big Lube^tm cast very hot out of good quality 1:20 metal and lube/sized it in the .458 die.  Well, I dun that and it worked out just fine.  I could have pan lubed and gotten a similar result.  I'm thinkn' the 250 grain PRS Big Lube^tm bullet will bump up enough for a good seal and the huge lube grove will provide enough lube to keep the gun runnin'.  I'll load it full of FFg Holy Black but not use a drop tube or compression die but I'll compress the powder 1/8" with the bullet when I seat it.

I'm thinkn' that it might make a good 150 yard rig and that's about as far out as Plainsman seems to get.  Recoil shouldn't beat up the shooter and it wouldn't be a wussy gamer load either.

Any thoughts?

DD-DLoS

[Dick Dastardly]

I've had a request for a reduced recoil Big Lube^tm bullet for the 45-70 to be shot in Plainsman events.  Here's what I'm thinkn'. . . 

Whut if I took a PRS Big Lube^tm cast very hot out of good quality 1:20 metal and lube/sized it in the .458 die.  Well, I dun that and it worked out just fine.  I could have pan lubed and gotten a similar result.  I'm thinkn' the 250 grain PRS Big Lube^tm bullet will bump up enough for a good seal and the huge lube grove will provide enough lube to keep the gun runnin'.  I'll load it full of FFg Holy Black but not use a drop tube or compression die but I'll compress the powder 1/8" with the bullet when I seat it.

I'm thinkn' that it might make a good 150 yard rig and that's about as far out as Plainsman seems to get.  Recoil shouldn't beat up the shooter and it wouldn't be a wussy gamer load either.

Any thoughts?

DD-DLoS

[El Paso Pete]

Plainsman shoot the same targets we do with out lever guns and at the same range,  15 or 20 yards max.  I did see one target at a Founder's Ranch match that was 30 yards out.

The PRS big lube should work great with 35 to 40 grains (by wt) of 3 F Goex along with some of them DD gamer grits (ground up lutefisk may work too) ta fill up the case, IMHO.      IMHO, if yer goin fill the case and compress it 1/8" that's way to much powder fer a 250 grain boolit.    Just fer laughs and giggles I loaded up some gamer loads for my 50-90 last year, 45 grains of Swiss 3F with enough polenta (uncooked) to fill the case pushin a PJ 650 grain bullet.  Shot real good at 50 yards but very little smoke.

The PRS big lube carries enough lube to shoot all day in a 24" barrel but it may not carry enough lube for a 34" long barrel, then again it just might work OK.   Should be real easy and cheap to load up a few and try 'em.   

I'd be inclined to use Goex 3F so as to get a cleaner burn because of the longer barrels ya find on rollin blocks and Sharps.  You might have to switch to Swiss 3F ta get a cleaner burn but try the Goex first.

I've found that my 50-90 Sharps (34" barrel) likes 95 grains of Swiss 1.5F or 3F  pushin the 650 grain Paul Jones Creedmoor and I don't have to push a patch through till I get home (I have fired up to 60 shots before cleanin usin Swiss) .    I have tried Goex in the Sharps and I have clean after every shot.    Swiss burns real clean but it only makes about half the smoke Goex does  , Swiss makes the perfect low smoke gamer powder.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Pete,

More food for thought when I get to the loading lab.  I've got some old mis-matched brass that just might apply to this project.  I like the idea of usin' up all them ol lute and herring bones as filler.  Kind of organic and natural, something they might have used back in the 1880s. .

DD-DLoS

[Steel Horse Bailey]

sulfer and lutefisk

[Hell-Er High Water]

I worked up a similar load for the 50-70.  Shooting full power BP loads from a 50-70 carbine is a bit much if you are going to shoot more than just a few rounds.  My attempt was to duplicate, as close as possible, the 50-70 carbine load of 1870, which in essence was a reduced load.  What I came up with is a good load and is pleasant to shoot.  I load 43.0 gr of GOEX FFg, dropped through a 30" drop tube, a tuft of PURE cotton (NOT synthetic) stuffed, but not compressed, to the case mouth, and a 350 grain Rapine, 56-50 bullet crimped in place.  The Rapine mould carries lots of lube, similar to the Big Lube style and will shoot all day without excessive fouling.  The bulet compresses the cotton to hold the powder firmly positioned in the case.  The reason for pure cotton is that it will completly burn to an ash and not leave any synthetic, plastic type residue in the barrel.

I am sure that with the Big Lube 45 bullet, cast soft as DD suggests, that a similar load will work in the 45-70.  I believe that the original military 45-70 carbine load used a 400 grain bullet and 45 grains of powder so you might try the 390 grain Big Lube bullet from DD to approximate the original carbine load.

Somthing else that is out there, if you are lucky enough to find one, is the Lyman, 45-70 collar button bullet.  This bullet casts about 140 grains to duplicate the weight of a 45 caliber round ball and has one big lube groove.  I have used this for years in reduced 45-70 loads to use on squirrels when deer hunting.  With a light charge of smokless pistol powder and cotton to hold the powder against the primer it sounds like a 22 rim fire when shot.  Quite possibly a BP load could be worked for this bullet also with enough power (and smoke) for a suitable Plainsman load.

I hope that gives you a few more ideas to think about.  Working up different loads for the old big bores is a lot of fun and can be very rewarding.

HHW

[Lars]

Some of us have used round balls in 46 or 52/53 caliber, with however much or whichever BP, a soft fiber wad, some lube and seat the whole thing down firmly on the powder. Can be as light a load as one wants. Also done the same thing with the Rapine 52 caliber bullets cast from pure lead.

For single shot, close range shooting, there are plenty of light loads that work really well when seated deep into the case, firmly down on BP or nitro powders. The old loading manuals have various such loads.

Have also used 53 caliber roundballs seated on top of 70 grains volume of any good BP and plenty of lube for 100/200 meter shooting at small gongs. Anymore, I can only tolerate a few full 50/70 loads for really long range shooting (300-600 yards), even then with Mag PAST recoil shield (at minimum). Really nice to have a 12,7X44R reduced to the recoil level of a 38/55 or 9,3X57X360.

Lars

[Capt. Augustus]

I've loaded .454 pistol bullets on top of a full charge of BP and it was accurate at close ranges.  I did some dump type shooting with it and it seemed accurate enough to hit bowling pins when I did my part out to 100 yards.  I named it the Capt. Augustus Express, very low recoil.  From the NCOWS magazine I got a gallery load for the .45-70.  It consists of 10 grains BP a Wonder Wad and a .454 lead ball seated on it.  You have to check them before shooting them because the ball will perkulate to the top.  You can use a ML short starter to seat them.  Like a .22 good to 25 yards through a Trapdoor barrel that had a glob of rust and wouldn't shoot regular bullets.

[Lars]

Capt. Augustus,

Those "perkulating" balls is why some of use went to "oversize" balls that fit tightly into the larger cases. Would expect a 0,457 or bigger ball to stay put in a 45/70 case, at least with enough powder under it (so that it is above the lower, wider part of the slightly tapered case).

Lars

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm gonna send this URL along to the pard that was looking for the reduced load for his 45-70.  There's enough good ideas here to last him till the cows come home.  I wonder if he will use lute or lefsa for filler?

DD-DLoS

[Max Morgan]

el paso pete,

the first time i tried the PRS boolits in a rifle it was a 30" brl 73.   full .45LC case of LIDU 2FG plus a wonder wad just in case.   ended up with lube all over the muzzle.  it worked fine for the six stages and there were no cleaning problems at all.   so it probably would be AOK in your 34" rifle.   you may want to cut the powder in the big 45-70 case a bit, add some grits then the wonderwad and boolit.

btw, you know about the wis state bp championship at WOWS on june 25th dont ya?

only a one day event but 8 stages.   meeting starts at 7:30 am.

wish they would have a plainsman event or two but then they'd have to do more than the one day.

are there any plainsman events down at the southern border of wisconsin ?

max morgan

[El Paso Pete]

el paso pete,

btw, you know about the wis state bp championship at WOWS on june 25th dont ya?

only a one day event but 8 stages.   meeting starts at 7:30 am.

wish they would have a plainsman event or two but then they'd have to do more than the one day.

are there any plainsman events down at the southern border of wisconsin ?

max morgan

Max,

This is the same weekend as Hang 'em High, dang it all.  Nothin ta do all winter then 2 good shoots on the same weekend.

Far as I know you can enter as plainsman in any match.  You use yer C&B and single shot rifle and only shoot 1/3 to 1/2 the number of rifle shots.  It kind of surprised me first the time I saw it, the feller right after me was shootin a 45-90 Sharps.   It was at the Founders' Ranch, Hip Shot was runnin the match and Tex was on the posse so it must be legal.  He really moved them targets around.

[El Paso Pete]

I'm gonna send this URL along to the pard that was looking for the reduced load for his 45-70.  There's enough good ideas here to last him till the cows come home.  I wonder if he will use lute or lefsa for filler?

DD-DLoS

Either lutefisk or lefsa would work good fer a filler.  However, tell 'im not ta use rakefisk, I tried that once and the crows run off with my brass.

[Dick Dastardly]

My first batch is all loaded up  and waitin' for the promised spring thaw.  I lube/sized the PRS 45-250 RNFP Big Lube^tm bullets using a .458 die.  The bullets are seated on a compressed charge of BP and crimped in the crimp grove with a nice tight roll crimp.

Testing and chronographing is next.

DD-DLoS

[El Paso Pete]

We talkin 45-70?  How much powder ya puttin in? 

The Plainsman events I've seen, only 4 or 5 of 'em so I'm no expert, the distance was less that 30 yards.  At Smoke in the Valley last Aug. the Plainsmen shot right with the rest of the posses and on the same rifle targets.  There was feller on my posse shootin a 45-110 with full power loads.   The rifle targets was only about 15 yards out.  He was rockin 'em real good.

If it were me I'd try some with 1/2 the normal powder charge (35 to 40 gr. by wt.) and fillin the case with wads or gamer grits.   

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Pete,

Love the horns.  I hear it helps to soak the lute in ale but I'm afraid that would wreck the ale.

The first batch has all the Holy Black I cud get under the boolit and still compress it with the boolit without deforming.  I think yer on to something with the half and half bp/gritts load for easy plinkin'.  I'll put some together this weekend.

DD-DLoS

[Hell-Er High Water]

Dick,

Down near the bottom of this page, I think I counted 18 lines down, is another topic by you with the same title.  Is this a duplication of the same post?  There are several replies in the other post including one that I posted regarding similar loads that I worked up for the 50-70.  If they are duplicates, you may want to consolidate them or delete one of them.

HHW

[Dick Dastardly]

The post got merged, but it's serving it's purpose.  I'm exploring, and learning, about reduced bp loads in the 45-70 case.  My only mission is to come up with a good plinker load for 150 yard and under ranges.  Looks promising.

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

[Wills Point Pete]

 Dick, if you are usin' Lutefisk for filler I hope you will be kind enough to shoot 'em when the wind is from the south. I am not sure we need the breadbasket of America with everything green dyin'. Poison Canada, instead.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho the fire,

The lute filler is only used in troll hunting rounds.  Seems like they hit the target.  The troll left.

DD-DLoS