loading 45/70

[sundance44`s]

That time in my life has come , i enjoy bench shooting more than prone shooting .. i always wanted a 45/70 bench rifle , and now i have one .. not by no means the best a ( H&R Buffalo Classic 45/70 ) but probally a good stepping stone to a better one . I`ve been shooting the holy black for 30 years now , Mostly cap and ball , been loading and shooting 45LC about 2 years now .. so i really don`t know what i need to know to make a cartrage rifle shoot the right way .. the rifle is on the way , i need to get the brass and bullets to make up some good home loads ... sure could use some good advice before i spend any more money and buy the wrong bullets or brass . My old shoulder can`t take a lot of pounding , and i know that comes from heavy bullets ..so any advice on lighter gr. bullets would be welcome ..

[TAkaho kid]

Hello Sundance,

Nothing wrong with the Buff classic. If recoil is an issue (which it can with the classic) get the stock weight from H&R. They will even install it for you for a very resonable price.

As for reloading, tons of info out there. First book on the bench should be "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" by Mike Venturino. Great info on the 45-70 in holy black not to mention all the other classic Sharps and Remington BP rounds.

As for bullet design that depends on how far you are shooting. A heavy bullet is more accurate at long range. The BPCR folks usually shoot 500 to 550 grain bullets. A great LOAD to get started with is the old Govt. 500 grain roundnose seated over 60 -63 grains of 2F or 1.5 Swiss, a .030 card wad and a Federal 215 primer. As for brass I perfer Starline. Others work just fine too.

Bullets should be cast of soft lead alloy, 20:1(lead/tin) is is a good starting point. For my Buff. I size .459 and lube with SPG or any other good lube or lube recipe designed for black powder cartridge shooting. Dont use that hard wax stuff the Smokeless folks use.

I have had great luck with the Saeco 1881 design. They lyman 427125 works well though watch that you don't bump-up the nose during the loading process - use a compression die. For a lighter bullet the Lyman 457124 works well but I don't consider it a good long range bullet. I find it accurate out to 150-200 yrds. Postell and Creedmoor styles work well too. I have a 550 grain Paper patch design that shoots very well - if you can handle the bruising. The important thing is too use a bullet designed specificly for black powder.

As for sights I installed the Smith Enterprises sight which is pricey but works quite well. You can also use a original Buffington from a trapdoor or the rear sight from a 30-40 Krag Military rifle. Both can be found on E-Bay.

Dive in! Enjoy it!

P.S.
Almost forgot, use a drop tube - -it does make a diffrence. I use a 24" tube attached to my Lyman classic measure. Or you can make one easy enough. Also a blow tube is good to have. Especially on hot dry low humidity days.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Sundance44,

There's not a thing wrong with your choice for a rifle.  They have won matches and are capable of fine accuracy.  Do get matched brass and get enough that you won't end up switching brands or batches during an important match.  Even though the gun is NEW, slug the barrel and KNOW what measurement to lube/size your bullets to.  Make up a dummy round with a smoked bullet seated far enough out to engage the rifling.  Keep moving the bullet back till it's just short of the rifling by a few thousandths.  That's your maximum OAL with that bullet in that gun.  Most guns are at their best when the bullet doesn't have to jump too far before engaging the rifling.  Some have more freebore than others.  Take notes as you go.  By all means, do get some good books on BPCR shooting and poke around in some of the bulletin boards devoted to this great sport.

Over on my web site I have several Big Lube™ bullet designs that may interest you.  For your less than 500 yard shooting and for less recoil, I recommend the DD/PRS 390 Big Lube™ 390 grain RNFP 45-70 bullet.  Before you purchase the mold I suggest the bullet sampler so that you have some to test.  If you choose not to cast bullets, Mason Stillwell and Springfield Slim both offer these for sale.  My web site is easy to find.  Just click on the banner below.

Good shootn'.

DD-DLoS

[Cuts Crooked]

Howdy Sundance,

TAKaho kid gave ya some good pointers there! Particularly concerning Venturino's book!

As he noted, a good bit of weight can be added to help cut down on recoil at the bench. Lighter bullets can help a lot too, but long range accurracy seems to suffer a bit when one goes to the lighter bullets. But then iffin yer like me, the eyesight has more affect on accuracy than anything else! I've had pretty good success with the DD/PRS 390gr bullet from Lee, and also the standard 405 grain offering from Lee! I have tried bullets in this weight range from some of the real high end bullet & mold makers and wasn't overly impressed by them. My 32" barrel will foul out pretty fast with about any bullet except the DD/PRS styles even when using high end powders like Swiss, unless I use a lube cookie in the load. I HATE messing with cookies!

You will probably get more advise, and some of it will be better than what I've offered, but I can tell ya one thing fer sure & certain...every gun is an individual, which is also true of every shooter, so go out there with a willingness to experiment to find what works best for YOU! And be willing to have a lot of fun doing it!

[sundance44`s]

Thanks pards .. i was wondering about the primmers .. i`m well stocked in the winchester large pistol primers i use on my 45lc loads ... wouldn`t these primmers be enough on the 45/70 bp loads ?... and i`ve been useing a rather short drop tube on the 45`s  4 incher ... i figured i need to buy one of the longer drop tubes for the 45/70 cases .. and i would like to cast my own bullets , been casting round balls a long time .. i`ll take a look at a mold with deep groves for more lube . will my crisco and bees wax mix be ok for a lube ? I know to be good at it there`s a lot of tricks to the trade ...and some don`t like to share ..lol  one more question would the store bought felt wadding be best or cardboard ?

[Cuts Crooked]

Thanks pards .. i was wondering about the primmers .. i`m well stocked in the winchester large pistol primers i use on my 45lc loads ... wouldn`t these primmers be enough on the 45/70 bp loads ?... and i`ve been useing a rather short drop tube on the 45`s  4 incher ... i figured i need to buy one of the longer drop tubes for the 45/70 cases .. and i would like to cast my own bullets , been casting round balls a long time .. i`ll take a look at a mold with deep groves for more lube . will my crisco and bees wax mix be ok for a lube ? I know to be good at it there`s a lot of tricks to the trade ...and some don`t like to share ..lol  one more question would the store bought felt wadding be best or cardboard ?

The large pistol primers will work, I don't know how well, but they will. Your Crisco/bees wax lube will be fine! There are better lubes out there, but that's what I've been using for years now and see no reason to change. As to wads, I'm very partial to card wads rather than felt, when going for extreme accurracy! I punch mine out of Hostess Ho Ho cartons!

[sundance44`s]

There`s an easy fix for balance and weight on a rifle .. i`ve been doing for years with front stuffers ..if they tend to be tip heavy i take the butt plate off and drill 1 sometimes 2  1half inch holes in the butt stock and pour in lead untill i get the balance and weight the way i lik`em ... then replace the butt plate and no one knows ..    i am i bit worried about bullet weight , maybe i should start with around a 4oo gr. bullet .. and see ..i`ve shot the 50 cal . buffalo bullets out of my front stuffer alot ... something like 525 gr.. it was a bit too much on my shoulder .. with 70gr of black behind it . ( think i`ll use coke carton cardboard over my powder charge .. after all things go better with coke ! )

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I concur about Mike Venturino's book Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Old West. It is the very best primer on shooting BP in single shots on the market. He has 2 separate loading sections in the book, one covering loading the single shot rounds like 45-70 and all the others in general, and a separate section giving tips by some of the top competitors on how they load their rounds. The first section is more general, the second is more painstaking. You can decide to follow the general advice, or the more picky stuff, it's up to you. I pretty much stick to the general stuff. In addition to all that, he has a chapter on loading each caliber common to the old Buffalo guns. The chapter on the 45-70 is the most informative, since it is so prolific, and so much is known about the caliber. I can't recommend this book highly enough. Buy it. I Wish I had a nickel for every time I have recommended Mike's books, but I don't get any money out of it, I just really like his books.

Don't use the pistol primers.

Pistol primers are a few thousandths shorter in length than rifle primers.They may pop just fine, but spend the money on a brick of rifle primers. They will seat to the proper depth in rifle primer pockets. I use Winchester Large Rifle primers in my 45-70 loads. Winchester does not make a separate 'regular' and 'magnum' primer, there is just one version for each size and they light off BP just fine.

A 4" drop tube isn't really accomplishing anything and you are just spending extra time using it. For regular CAS loads a drop tube is not necessary anyway. If you get serious about loading 45-70 for long range you are going to want a drop tube around 24" long. A 24" tube will make a significant difference in how the powder packs into the cases and how much powder the case will hold. I can easily get 5 grains more into a 45-70 with my 24" drop tube than if I just dump it directly into the case with a funnel.

I have a reasonably heavy Sharps, and I have recently changed over from 500 grain bullets to 405. In the summer, with just a cotton shirt between me and the butt, even the heavy Sharps was punishing me a little bit more than I wanted with 500 grain bullets and 40 shot strings. If you have shot much benchrest, you know it is more punishing than offhand. I have shot a friend's Buffalo Classic with 405 grain bullets, and the recoil wasn't bad, but I only fired a few shots from it.

If I wuz you, I would start out by buying a few different bullet designs and seeing what you like best, before you invest in any molds. Two terrific sources for lubed and sized cast bullets for single shots are Buffalo Arms, and Cabellas. I usually buy the 405 grain Montana Precision bullets direct from Cabellas. They have some lighter bullets too. Give the guys at Buffalo Arms a call. Single shots are their business and they have forgotten more than I'll ever know about shooting a BP single shot. They will answer any questions you have and guide you some of the choices. They are good people.

[Lars]

Here is a third vote for Mike Venturo's book about Buffalo Rifles Of The Old West. One of the nice things about it is the section where numerous top shooters tell what works for them -- lots of diversity in what works!!

If you have not yet done so, I would strongly suggest that you check out the requirements for each and every type of long range shooting you intend to do with the rifle. Check specifically what they require/allow in terms of guns, powder types, number of shots fired per "stage/round", time allowed to fire them, distances, etc. etc. That information can keep you from spending time on loads, etc. that either don't meet the requirements or are overkill. I think there are some that disallow the Buffalo Classic.

The informal and SASS-associated long range shoots are generally timed and only 10 shots -- lots of loads will give good accuracy for 10 shots -- lots won't. Some long range shoots I have shot at allow 10-15-20-30 minutes for some fixed number of shots -- that allows plenty of time for attention to your rifle for best results -- especially if you are shooting a lightweight hunting rifle like I do and the barrel heats up after about 4 shots. While I have never shot in the more demanding long range shoots, it has been my understanding that the NRA and BPCR matches are quite strict in their rules, etc. Takaho Kid and others can guide you to the official information, should you not already have it.

Lars

[TAkaho kid]

My 32" barrel will foul out pretty fast with about any bullet except the DD/PRS styles even when using high end powders like Swiss, unless I use a lube cookie in the load. I HATE messing with cookies!  

Grease Cookie?! I use them in my paper patched loads only. You would be hard pressed to find them on the line at Raton or any of the other major BPCR shoots. Yes, some cartridges seem to work better with a grease cookie, 44-77, 40-90bn, 44-90bn. but I have never needed them with my standard 45-70 load using the SAECO 1881. Most of the BPCR folks are able to shoot an entire match (80 plus rounds) without wiping simply by using a good bullet design, good powder and a good lube and the handy blow tube. Check out the match results and equipment list in the Black Powder Cartridge News

One item of note:
As the range gets longer bullet quality becomes more of an issue most serious BPCR folks try to hold +/- 0.5 grain tolorance between bullets and
minimize runout. Yup, 200 to 300 bucks is a lot for a mold I only have one custom mold but it will last a life time and casts a gem of a bullet.

Awhile back a hardcore BPCR shooter on the BPCR.net offered to wring out the big lube type bullets at 500 - 1000 yrds in a controled test. I believe he went by the handle Crossfireoops. Unfortunatly the bullets he recieved where of an unknown alloy and were poorly cast. Iam sure if proper cast bullets were provided he would be willing to oblige again.

A good source for info is:
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/yabb.pl

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I use a 2 foot piece of 1/2 inch copper plumbing for a drop tube.  I mount it on a stand made of bits of toobie fours.  seems to work, and didn't cost much.

Stick a funnel in the top, and a copper reducing fitting on the bottom.  You don't need solder or glue, just deform the end a bit and it will stay

[sundance44`s]

Great idea Sir Charles ... i was looking at a drop tube in cabelas ... 39 bucks sounds like a lot for no more than what it is .. with the copper tubeing i could even start out larger at the top to make a wide funnel and soider on a reducer at the bottom to get it down close to case neck size .. okok got a pic in me head off to the hardware store ! 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I think my drop tube started life as some 3/8" copper tubing.  My best friend is an HVAC (Heating & Air Cond.) expert and he had a combination flaring/swaging tool.  We did each end differently, and the top end will hold a small funnel I had, while the other end fits perfectly over the mouth of any 44 or 45 cal. cartridge.  It's about 30" long or perhaps a bit more.  I took some steel wool and rubbed it briskly on the tubing to give it a nice texture and remove the printing.  It's just the right hight to put my cases in a 50 count block (Thanks again, Ornery Orr: the 45-70 block you made is PERFECT) and set it all on the floor.  The funnel is then just at the right hight to work with while pouring in the FFg or FFFg from my Lee dippers!

[sundance44`s]

I thought i`d try some store bought bullets before i bought a mold , just to see which gr. weight would best fit me . I came across some Meister bullets 45/70  RN/FP 405 gr .458 SPG lubed 3 lubeing rings ready packed for ( 19 bucks a 100 ) at sportsmanwarehouse , they did have one lighter gr . 380 i think but i thought i`d try middle of the road first .. i`m assumeing 2f black powder would be best ...goex . i have plenty of the 2f goex on hand , bought 2 bags of winchester brass thats all they had . I`m guessing there won`t be much brass streching with the BP loads , and i`m hopeing the rotatorcup in my right shoulder will hold too ..lol  I`d look a little sissy with a pillow on me shoulder ..  I`m wondering about the flat nose bullets too .  i think in any sass match they require flat nose soft lead bullets right ? well it will be awhile before i extent my shooting past 200 yrds anyway .. so they shouldn`t be a problem . ( like i could see further than 200 yards ) .. i walked right past the book everyone was recomending ... i`ll go back and get it next week , before my loading dies arrive , thanks fer the help pards !

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Before you make the same costly mistake as I did, keep this in mind:  Meister makes GREAT hard-cast bullets.

Got that?

OK:  hard-cast and BP don't work well together!

Cabelas sells some good 20-1 soft lead bullets at a reasonable price, tho the shipping can get nasty.

[sundance44`s]

Thanks Baily i got it ... my only choice there were oregon trail laser bullets , i`ve used them in my 45 ..i knew they were hard cast .... these Meister bullets look a lot softer than those , but harder than what i cast out of plumbers lead ... i think they`ll be ok for my first trial , i`m really looking for the right weight right now ... Dicks bullet molds look good to me for when i start casting , but i didn`t want to buy 2 molds to start and the slampler didn`t have enough for me ... i wanted at least 50 to start , might be trying a lot of loads and powders ..