Hartford Armory Remingtons and BP

[French Jack]

Anyone had experience with the Hartford Armory Remington and black powder loads?  Any problems with loads?  I have one on order and would appreciate hearing about how they handle BP --- Please no comments about APP-- don't use the stuff. 
Thanks.

[Lars]

Jack,

I don't have a definite answer for you, although it appears that the answer is a solid "Yes". I will tell you what I know, although I never finished my research and the money went into real estate. I was intending to buy one in 44-40 to use primarily with premium BP loads (Swiss, Schutzen, 777 FFG and Lyman 427098 bullets) and HV nitro loads to original HV 44-40 specs. Checking with friends that bought them provided nearly all the information I wanted but, stopped short because they had not yet had time to do all the testing with BP loads.

As you probably already know, the Hartford Armory 1875s are direct copies of an original, but made with modern steels and manufacturing methods, with some improvements internally. They are the best out of the box, single-action replica revolvers I have handled or shot -- only Freedom Arms and some custom Rugers are their equal. I was/am expecting that they, like the Freedom Arms and custom Rugers, will need some attention during an all-day match with BP loads because of the tight tolerances of the guns. I was expecting to buy a second cylinder pin and polish it to a few thousands undersize to aleviate any problems -- as I did with my Ruger.

Back when Larry Black was selling them directly, the word was that there was expected to be a "BP" varient that had certain clearances larger than on the "nitro" varient. Unfortunately, I never did learn just which clearances those were and what the differences might be. I don't know the final results and decision. Tracy (Lou Grahm) does use them with BP but, with Goex Cowboy and either Snakebite or MVD bullets, so they should work well with premium BP ammo (such as that sold by Republic Metallic Cartridge or similarly high quality handloads). I would suggest contacting her for specifics.

Lars

[Fox Creek Kid]

If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times so everyone repeat in chorus: TOLERANCES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABILITY TO SHOOT BP!!  Usually, a gun that is "tight" shoots BP better as the ejecta is not blown in the areas that need to move. If you have someone "open up" your tolerances you might as well throw your money into a well. The key is lots of lube in critical areas including bullets. Gas rings help but are not a "ticket" necessarily to "lube freedom" so to speak. MYTH BUSTED!!!

[Lars]

Sorry Fox Creek Kid,

Actually clearance -- (tolerance is something quite different) -- between the cylinder pin and the cylinder are crutial when they are on the small side. While an excellent "crud bushing" is essential in a properly designed BP revolver one can, of course, drownd the cylinder pin in BP lube so that even a Remington NMA will keep functioning (and it will be a greasy mess).

There is no MYTH, just some good engineering that Colt, Rogers & Spencer, Ruger, etc. all incorporated into some or all of their revolvers.

Lars

[Lou Graham]

Hey, thanks for the tolerence vs. clearance opening.

Think of it like this:
Tolerance is an acceptable level of error.
Clearance is a deliberate measure.  Your clearance can have a tolerance.  

HA Remmies tolerances are so small, they almost don't exist.  If there's a space between two parts, it's deliberate, not an accident or sloppy manufacturing.  Things that should be the same - like the holes in the cylinders - really are.

I've been shooting HA Remmies with BP (Goex Cowboy mostly)  in both .38 and 44-40 for a couple of seasons now.  I've used subs and real BP, I've gone 14 stages without even wiping them down, I've loaded awful ammo (real BP and smokeless bullets, I've done everything I could think of to find the limit.  They keep running.

That BP option that Lars mentioned can be special ordered, but I don't think it's necessary.  The gap (clearance) between the cylinder and the barrel is a little bigger.  That's it.  I've put 1,000's of BP rounds down range in non-BP gapped guns with no problem.  Doc isn't a BP shooter and he thought it might be wanted by some folks.  He's listened to all the horror stories.  You know how paranoid those smokeless shooters are about BP crud  

No crud gets into the pin behind the cylinder. The bushing fits and nothing gets in behind it.  I smear mine with melted bore butter and when I take the gun apart to clean, it's still got yellow in there.  No gunk, crud or anything else.

They were originally made to be used with BP and these are faithful replicas of the originals with better metal, etc as Lars said.  

[sundance44`s]

Shooting sass stage targets .... are no comparision to shooting black powder matches , the sass targets are so close to the shooter and so large , geeze about any load is enought to hit and ding , I shoot in black powder matches every month where the targets are no larger than a poker chip at 25 yrds .. everything has to be right ...and i mean right every shot , or you might as well sit and watch the ole timmers shoot , if you want to learn about shooting the holy black .. join a muzzle loader club in yer spare time .. any black powder club is a great bunch of pards that are always willing to share experiences and tech imformation .. i`ve been shooting the holy black fer 30 years now and i still learn something new once in a while .

[Lars]

Good perspective sundance44's, one that many of us would agree with as regards the difference between SASS and "normal" BP matches.

However, there is a different perspective many of us share about the group size really needed for shooting even the "in your face" SASS targets and especially for the more demanding targets common to W3G and NCOWS matches. We want revolvers and loads that group into 1,0 inch or less at the target (even better if at 20-25 yards). Why? Because we don't always manage to have the sights lined up with the middle of the big targets, making edge hits all too common. For edge hits, a revolver shooting only 3-4 inch groups at the target is going to give an unwantedly large probability of a misses when the sights are aligned with the edge of the target.

Having shot the HA Remmies and other high quality revolvers capable of small, poker-chip-sized groups I would be content with most all of them for precision revolver shooting at 25 yards, given, of course, the loads that they each, individually shoot that well with proper BP loads. The list of such revolvers I have personal experience (either me or buddies doing the shooting) with includes accurized NMA Remmingtons, accurized Roger & Spenser replicas, at least one stock S&W Russian replica revolver, Freedom Arms, some Ruger Vaqueros, and the HA Remmingtons (least experience with these). Most of that shooting was with various BPs. Unfortunately for me, I no longer have the eyes, even with special glasses, to shoot revolvers that well.

Lars

[French Jack]

Thanks for the response, Lou and all the others.  I just now have to wait until Taylor's gets in another lot of the model I want.  Six months or more is what I was told.

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy French Jack!
What model are you waiting for?

[French Jack]

I'm waiting for a 1875 in .44 with a 7 1/2" barrel.  Taylor's was out of stock and said it would be about 6 months give or take.

[Blueberry]

Last year I shot the German CAS-championsship (10 stages) with my Hartford Remmie 1875.
It worked fine !!!

First, I thought, the low tolerances would cause problems with BP ammo, like my S&W 2000 Schofield (7 shots and the cylinder blocked)

But the Hartford Remmie worked fine, no problems. I think the problem, as you see on the S&W 2000 Schofield is the so called missing "gas ring" on the replica. The gas-ring on the originals protected the cylinder axis from dirt.

Lt. Blueberry

[Rattler]

Give or take how many YEARS? I hope you didn't pay up front like others did and then waited,waited,still waiting.......waiting..