Lower Recoil .45 Commercial Loads?

[jambie]

I'm new to CAS and shot my SA .45's the other day for the first time using Winchester and Black Hills cowboy loads, both 250 gr. RNFP. Both seemed pretty accurate, tending to shoot a little high of point of aim at 25 yds. I know, I know, that's pretty far for CAS, but I was on the pistol range, so no choice. Anyway, I noticed that the Black Hills loads produced SIGNIFICANTLY more recoil than the Winchester. Both functioned perfectly in my USFA revolvers and my Henry Big Boy rifle. That rifle is a sweet shooter, very smooth right out of the box, and very accurate using a Marbles tang sight I installed.

My question is this: I'm going to mail order some more ammo, and will get the Winchester, unless someone here can recommend an even lower recoil load still suitable for steel targets. Again, I'm just getting started, and haven't been able to shoot with anyone else involved in CAS yet, so please forgive any newbie gaffs in this message.

Regards,
Little Calumet Tom

[Big John Denny]

I believe what you found was that Winchester loads it's 45 Colt to fire safely in the older model Colt SAA, hence the less recoil. It should work just fine for any SASS/CAS match.

I shoot nothing but 45 Colt in my western guns, and like it a lot. I reload, so I can load about any level I need. After you've been fully hooked on our game, you'll probably get into reloading as well. It really does save money over store bought 45 Colt.

Good luck and good shooting to you.

[Cyrille]

Mr. Denny is correct about Winchester cowboy loads, I prefer to use them if I run out of my reloads at the shooting range. But i have found that PMC (Precision Made Catridges)  have close to if not the same light recoil also. the company
says that their 250gr bullet leaves the barrel @ 800 ft. per sec. Winchester claims 750 ft. per sec. You decide.

[Advertising]

[Will Blastem]

Sorry for the very late response but, how about Magtech? Since I am shooting 2-300 rounds a week the economics of the thing made me get into reloading, but... I seem to recall that Magtech was pushing that 250gr lead pill about 700-750 fps in their cowboy load. It was pretty accurate and fairly low recoil.

BTW, since beginning reloading I went from about $16 per 50 rounds to about $3.50 per 50. PLUS being able to work up and control that perfect load for me. Never thought I'd enjoy Economics so well

[Coyote Tim]

I just did some testing to see which of my handloads were the most accurate and I was surprised to notice that the Winchester Cowboy loads had pretty much the same recoil as my Titegroup/250gr. bulletloads, which are pretty light. I'd be suprised if there was something out there lighter than the Winchester Cowboy loads.

[Riot Earp]

What about the Ten-X 165 grain load? Seems like it should be rather light.

[ColonelFlashman]

I'm new to CAS and shot my SA .45's the other day for the first time using Winchester and Black Hills cowboy loads, both 250 gr. RNFP. Both seemed pretty accurate, tending to shoot a little high of point of aim at 25 yds. I know, I know, that's pretty far for CAS, but I was on the pistol range, so no choice. Anyway, I noticed that the Black Hills loads produced SIGNIFICANTLY more recoil than the Winchester. Both functioned perfectly in my USFA revolvers and my Henry Big Boy rifle. That rifle is a sweet shooter, very smooth right out of the box, and very accurate using a Marbles tang sight I installed.

My question is this: I'm going to mail order some more ammo, and will get the Winchester, unless someone here can recommend an even lower recoil load still suitable for steel targets. Again, I'm just getting started, and haven't been able to shoot with anyone else involved in CAS yet, so please forgive any newbie gaffs in this message.

Regards,
Little Calumet Tom

Black Hills is closer to the original Factory loads of the Victorian/Edwardian era's, that why the difference & the revolvers/pistoles of the Era were sighted in @ 75 yards out of the Factory is why they all shoot high, don'tcha know.

Why reduced loads? This sport is part Saturday @ the Matinee & part Living History, did our Heros use Reduced loads when Saving the Day or did the Outlaws when breaking the Law? Going down the path of Reduced loads is the Path of the "Gamester" & I do not believe that's the path you intend to take.
Using reduced loads can cause Knock Downs Not to Fall, lead to Squib loads, bouce backs that strike you or others around you as well as other problems.

Look @ Remington's Western Paintings to see what the proper Shooting Stance is as well, it's w/ a Bent Elbow & Wrist, the Style of Grip is the reason for this as the revolver/pistole is supposed to role back in your hand so as to more condusively grasp the Hammer w/ the Crook/Meat of your Thumb, not w/ a Straight Arm as 1 is tought these days for firing Modern Semi-Auto's & Revolvers.

[Cyrille]

Colonel Flaseman, Sir
    I don't know the powder loads used in either of the cartridges mentioned although I suspect that the Winchester 'cowboy' loads are close to the maximum for 'cowby' competition give or take a few tenths of a grain.
     Myself I load well short of the maximum 'cowboy'load recomendation for my revolver (an old style Vaquero) and use the same powder load in my rifles albeit with a heaver grain bullet.[250 gr]
   My Vaquero, I am attempting to sight in @ 25 yds. useing a 200 gr. bullet and " TiteGroup" The  Vaquero does indeed roll back in my hand and does facilite my cocking of the hammer, however I find that I have to shoot low in order to hit the man sized silhouette in the chest, neck, shoulder area. should I lower my bullet weight? My powder charge? or both?

[ColonelFlashman]

The majority of my experience w/ re-loading is only w/ FF/FFF gunpowder & Bullet weights in original Factory loads.
The only thing I can state about this is, The Lighter the Bullet, the lesser the Re-coil, the closer to P.O.A. it'll be for 25 yard targets, but then you risk Not being able to knock-down the Knock-downs because the Bullet is to light.
I've always found where my loads print on a target, in Specific revolvers/pistoles, rifles/carbines & adjusted my aim from there.
That's how it was done back in the day, so I don't see the neccessity to change it.

[Camille Eonich]

Cyrille, if you are having to aim low to hit the target than yes, using a lighter bullet will help.  A lighter bullet will hit lower on the target and you will then be able to bring your POA up.


A better thing to do would be to find a load that both you and your gun likes then adjust your sight accordingly which is probably going to mean filing your front site at least a little bit.  If the 200 grain bullet is too stout for you then try dropping down to a 180.  A lot of cowboy shooters are even using 165 gr bullets.  There is really no point in subjecting yourself to hot loads for cowboy shooting unless you just like the noise.   

[Cyrille]

I've always found where my loads print on a target, in Specific revolvers/pistoles, rifles/carbines & adjusted my aim from there.
That's how it was done back in the day, so I don't see the neccessity to change it.
[/quote]
 Yes sir that sounds like real sound advice, I already know where my loads print thus I know, more or less where to aim a little to the right and in the groin area. I am satisfied with that. But I had hoped to tell the pistol where to shoot, not let it dictate to me. Guess I'll never be a "Frank Butler" oh well C'est la vie. Thank you sir I apprecate your taking time to answer my inquiry.

[Cyrille]

Thank you Ms. Eonich it is very good of you to suggest that line of experamentation I will give it a try next weekend at the range useing the same powder load but a lighter bullet, I thought that the 180gr was not going to be heavy enough to knock down SASS metal targets. My 250gr bullets are fine out of my rifles but shoot way high from my revolver @ 25yds the 200s are better but still shoot high @ that distance, although they do print on the target. That's why I have to aim as I said in my last post.

[Camille Eonich]

Cyrille, how much powder and what kind are you using?

[Cyrille]

Ms. Eonich I have sent you a personal message on this subject

[Doc Shapiro]

I've always found where my loads print on a target, in Specific revolvers/pistoles, rifles/carbines & adjusted my aim from there.
That's how it was done back in the day, so I don't see the neccessity to change it.

 Yes sir that sounds like real sound advice, I already know where my loads print thus I know, more or less where to aim a little to the right and in the groin area. I am satisfied with that. But I had hoped to tell the pistol where to shoot, not let it dictate to me. Guess I'll never be a "Frank Butler" oh well C'est la vie. Thank you sir I apprecate your taking time to answer my inquiry.

Kentucky Windage?  That's what this sounds like.  It sure won't lead to good shooting.

Settle on a load.  When you have that worked out, give a good sample to a gunsmith with your gun and have the barrel turned to fix the windage.  Then go to the range with your ammo and shoot a few groups.  They should print low.  File the front sight down a little and do it again.  Repeat until you get that gun shooting to POA at 15 yards.  If your guns print high, have the gunsmith build up the front sight.

Then you will dictate where to shoot the gun.

Having your guns sighted in is especially useful for the odd, small bonus shot (clay at 10 yards, etc.).

Doc

[ColonelFlashman]

Cyrille, if you are having to aim low to hit the target than yes, using a lighter bullet will help.  A lighter bullet will hit lower on the target and you will then be able to bring your POA up.


A better thing to do would be to find a load that both you and your gun likes then adjust your sight accordingly which is probably going to mean filing your front site at least a little bit.  If the 200 grain bullet is too stout for you then try dropping down to a 180.  A lot of cowboy shooters are even using 165 gr bullets.  There is really no point in subjecting yourself to hot loads for cowboy shooting unless you just like the noise.   

The only problem w/ this Philosophy is the Fact that "What If" it's the Only Ammo you can get to & you've to defend your, your Families or someones elses Life w/ Lightly Loaded w/ a Light Projectile Special Target Ammo?
Because w/Llight Loads & Light Weight Bullets, All you're going to do is Tick the Bad Guy Off, when you need to put them down perminently w/ the 1st shot, otherwise if you don't, someone you love will not be around anymore.
One of the Reasons I & Others Keep Stating that this is "Part Saturday @ the Matinee & Part Living History" is the Fact once again those from the REEL & REAL WEST Shot what they could Purchase straight out of the Box for Every situation that came their way & didn't have Special Loads to use for specific situations.
Isn't that part of the Reason we're doing this, is to Imulate what we saw on the Silver Screen &/or what Actually Transpired in Real Life West?

[ColonelFlashman]

Kentucky Windage?  That's what this sounds like.  It sure won't lead to good shooting.

Settle on a load.  When you have that worked out, give a good sample to a gunsmith with your gun and have the barrel turned to fix the windage.  Then go to the range with your ammo and shoot a few groups.  They should print low.  File the front sight down a little and do it again.  Repeat until you get that gun shooting to POA at 15 yards.  If your guns print high, have the gunsmith build up the front sight.

Then you will dictate where to shoot the gun.

Having your guns sighted in is especially useful for the odd, small bonus shot (clay at 10 yards, etc.).

Doc

Those who've Used this Method through out History have Rarely Missed using it, fore they Know Exactly Where it's Going to Hit Every Time, Put Down what they Hit w/ it & it isn't getting back up be it a Target or Real Life.

Only so much can be done to Improve "Fixed Iron Sights" on a Pistole/Revolver & concocting Special Light Loads isn't part of what our Sport was Originally about, it's about Imulating the REEL & REAL West, they don't & didn't use Special Light Loads to take down what they were shooting @.

It Smacks of being a "Gamester" who has to win @ all costs even if it means using Dubious Methods w/ in the Rules to do so & you also Run into the Problem, as I stated Previously, of Not being able to Knock Down the Knock-down Targets because the Load & Bullet are to Light, you get a Squib Load blowing your Pistole up because you don't realize it & fire the next round, then after doing everything Doc Says, you've to Shoot Loads that aren't your Special Target Loads to save yours or someone else Life, you're not going to Know where it's going to Hit.

[Cyrille]

It seems that I may have started a mini argument here. That was not my intent. I thank all who have taken time offer advice. I will consider what was said by all and decide which path to follow. A feller once said "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I______ I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference."
   I shall choose my road after careful consideration of the facts presented. Once again to all who offered their advice
I thank you.

[Camille Eonich]

Don't worry about it Cyrille.  Just different people expressing different opinions.  It's what makes the world go around. 


Flashman I tend to think of CAS as a fantasy sport and prefer to participate in SASS rather than NCOWS because I think that the people in SASS take things just a little bit less serious.  Even in NCOWS you are living out a fantasy to some extent.  Steel targets don't really need killing they just gotta go clang.


I keep a shotgun in the corner of my bedroom for home defense and a 9mm auto in my desk drawer for defensee during the day when no one else is home.  I tend to think that for someone to be able to use the claim of self-defense for shooting someone that the person is going to need to be within 6 feet or so.  There's not a gun or a load in my house that I would worry about not doing sufficient damage to someone within the proximity for self-defense to be a valid claim.


My opinion.

[ColonelFlashman]

It seems that I may have started a mini argument here. That was not my intent. I thank all who have taken time offer advice. I will consider what was said by all and decide which path to follow. A feller once said "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I______ I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference."
   I shall choose my road after careful consideration of the facts presented. Once again to all who offered their advice
I thank you.

No argument, just a difference of Philosophy on what the Original intent of how Our Sport is supposed to be Shot.

There are those of us that Believe that the "Spirit of the Game" & "the Cowboy Way" taken from the REEL West of "Saturday Morning @ the Matinee" & the REAL West through the "Living History" aspect of Shooting our Sport is the Only way to do so, Shooting in the same Style & Manner as they did, is the only Right way to do it. Which has Nothing to do w/ Imulating the Hygene methods of the era as some of the "Gamesters" would say we should be following then as well if we choose to shoot in the same manner of the era.
We use our Firearms as they came Straight out of the box or w/ Minimal Gunsmithing to Fix a problem the Factory missed,  Following the Stage Scenerio exactly as Written as in the Unexpected Life or Death situation, Using the Leather Gear that was Available @ the Time & in the Fashion that is was Actually used in, Shooting Ammo as close to Factory Loadings that were Available @ the time & Wearing the same Clothing of our Silver Screen Heros/Heroins & Outlaws or of the Victorian Era that was Available & the Norm @ the time.

The "Gamsters" mind-set of Shooting our sport is the Same as those that shoot other shooting disaplines, "Win @ All Costs" even if it means using Dubious Methods w/ in the Rules w/o actually breaking them.
They've to have the Latest Mechanical Mod for their Firearms such as Short Stroke Lever Kits; Leather Gear that was Not available during the Era such as Snap Closure Shot-shell Belt Sliders or wearing Strong side w/ a Cross-draw Holster on the same belt or Shot-shell Belt worn above the Naval like a Bra instead of on the waist or hips; Using Minimal Powder Charges & Bullet Weights for Minimal Recoil that you can watch travelling down range & a .22 sounds loader than it does; Minimal Required Attire that they get rid of as soon as they possibly can or don't wear some of the required attire @ all & Shadow Shooting the Stage or figuring a way to Circumvent the Written Scenerio so as to Win it, but still be w/ in the Rules.