NCOWS 1 members view

[Irish Dave]

I understand your position, Cyrille, and respect it.

Just know that if you should change your mind, that the door of NCOWS will be open for you and your son. We'd be glad to have you both. We're not perfect, but we're workin' on it.

Ride easy, pardner.

[Cyrille]

Oh so that's the point You're making Marshal the angle ejection gives a competitive advantage to the shooter of a Winchester '94 Trail's End, didnt think about that. But that makes no diffrence in my or my son's case. [that's why I couldn't see what diffrence angle or stright ejection would make because no matter what 'angle' the case took we both still get hit. We both shoot long arms from the left shoulder and the case hits us somewhere when it ejects. Not that that should make a diffrence. A rule is a rule.

[Linn county ranger]

Will, that is what i'm talking about, on one issue if it wasn't done back then we can't do it now,but on others if it looks close we can. I'm not talking about being competitive any more i'm talking about being consistate about the 19th century. Its just like shot shell slides afiew years ago they don't ofer a competitive advantage they are not correct. How are members suppose to follow the rules if we are not cosistant.
Black River if you read my first post I did make mention of the boots there. And I was asked by another person who posted here what I would like to see in NCOWS so I told him, That is where the clothing come in. And I know that things cost alot I have 3 people shooting in my house ,Thats why my wife makes most of our clothes I reload and cast all of my bullets. And I didn't say I saw a need for the gun mods.
Cyrille I think the reason your 94 isn't legal is they didn't make the angle eject untill yhe 1980's or around there some time. but here we go with consistancy again.

[Cyrille]

It's like I said in my last post, A rule is a rule, I'll just keep looking until I find something that I can live with and it can get along with me also.
                           "Happy Trails"

[Lone Gunman]

...wrist watches but I'm not sure what time they came about. I have a 1902 Sear Roebuck cat. and they aren't in there so I guess they are not in our time period.

Wrist watches have always been just plain wrong. In fact, one club's former Marshal used to include a mention of wrist watches and cell phones as part of the morning shooters meeting.  I caught one at the Nationals one year and it brought the entire match to a halt until it was corrected.      I won't say who was wearing it but his initials were...well, I won't even do that 

[Wymore Wrangler]

Yep, I'd sure hate to be caught wearing a wrist watch at NTR by Jack Prewitt

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy,

I've been here just a year now.  I have learned a lot in that year.

I have completed the process and become an Original.

I used to be a very competitive shooter [read more than 30 years ago] and am in this for the fun and friendships.

I have 4 PC pocket watches.  Just spent $105 to get two of them repaired.  I now have a modern repro pocket watch to wear while actually on the firing line.  I would not feel bad if a $20 repro got damaged there.  I wear one of the originals when I leave the firing line.

The shoes with the elastic sides are period correct, at least to the 18870's.  They are documented in historic costume books.  You just have to open some books and do a little looking.  There are several vendors that offer these that have done extensive research and do them right.  Missouri Boot is one.  River junction also sell some.

I am FAR from perfect in my impression, but I keep working on getting better.

Having been a competitior, I can understand the thrill of shooting well and taking home some loot!  But I used equipment that was within the rules.  That is what this all seems to be about.  Seems pretty simple.

BTW, I also collect wrist watches.  The recognized texts date the appearance of wrist watches at the start of the Great War [WWI].  The first ones were small size pocket watches, modified to take a strap or just placed in a leather pouch on a wrist band which let the dial be seen.  During WWI crystal guards were developed to protect the crystal from damage in the trenches.  I have one of the watches and the grill to go on it.  The wrist band is held by two small wire "loops" and the 12 is painted red.  This type of watch face was found generally in watches made between 1912 & 1921.  I would love to see documentation of pre 1900 occurance.

[gw]

L.G.---A rather "untimely" reply to your mention of that fella wearing the wristwatch at the Nationals, heck, anybody that dumb ought to be made to run for office in this outfit! By the way, does anyone have the correct time??


                                                                          GW

[Irish Dave]

Consistency is very important. I think we can all agree on that. NCOWS is working to improve that consistency within the organization. And the Congress has acted decisively in the last couple of years to demonstrate its desire that consistency be on the side of authenticity not laxity.

I think many of the issues that are causing difficulties now are the result of recent leadership trying to deal with issues that previously were either ignored or "swept under the rug" for whatever reasons. Unfortunately, a wound left untended begins to fester. Unfortunately, we're now having to deal with issues that should have been addressed a long time ago. 

That may cause some distress. But these matters are not going to go away or get better until they're addressed. Resolving them is key to the health and success of NCOWS.

[Ol Gabe]

E-Friends, NCOWS Pards & Pardettes, All,
Just for the sake of discussion...
Many fine points and observations always appear in topics like this, at times we tend to only remember the most recent issues and reflect on them as to how they might relate to the present commentary, others delve into the steamy past and dusty archives to dredge out some old tome on this or that and how it is the absolutely, positively, one and only, definitive answer, more or less, because it was seen someplace, somewhere by somebody else and they told me about last year. This is human nature.
Shooting and enjoying old style and original firearms is the basic reason we are here, Revolvers, Rifles, Buffalo Guns, Shotguns, Pocket Pistols and Derringers are fun to shoot in a safe and historical environment, one which all of our NCOWS events trys to provide the attendee and participant, this is a given. Organizational rules and regs offer a set of guidelines for those clubs/Posses that seek to associate, pattern, align and emulate what the NCOWS concept offers, that is also a given.
An earlier comment (I might add that 'it' is one that has dogged the org for many years) was made that the new Shooter 'needed' 2 Revolvers and another one of this or that just to be in NCOWS, if I understand the Newbie's comment. Sad to say, but he is suffering from a high degree of the NFF/Newbie Frustration Factor wherein he was 'told' by such and such "...that all he needed was in his gun case.", or "...that stainless steel Ruger will be fine...", and my personal favorite, "...the guy at the local gun shop sez everything I have is OK for NCOWS." Most of those 'advisors' have little or no clues about CAS or what is needed in NCOWS, SASS, WASA or CMSA let alone NSSA or any of the other myriad of historical/semi-historically oriented Shooting Sports, the expertise they have comes via catalogues, magazines and something they watched last Sunday morning on the Oudoor Channel. We must agree that they are in the business of selling guns and ammo, maybe they do participate in our hobby, but probably not. They may join as a member to get the mag or buy an ad in THE SHOOTIST but we'll rarely or never see them on the range as it is strictly business with them, this is a given. How we as an org will educate and enlighten these businessfolk, as well as prospective new members, should be a large part of an overall organizational marketing plan, one that will hopefully see fruition in the next year.
For many Newbies arriving at their first event with a Ruger and a '94 we all hope that they will be welcomed and provded with any extra ammo and firearms needed to make that event one to be remembered. Having seen this happen myself at many NCOWS Shoots, it always makes me smile and proud to be associated with such kind folks as those that will lend a Revolver or Rifle or whatever and all the ammo needed to complete the event to a total stranger, one that has a burning desire to participate, much like us at our first Shoot. At the end of the day they shake hands and part friends with a smile, and almost always, a wave-off of the hand when an offer to repay for the cost of shells is offered. This is a given.
NCOWS is in the midst of a Teenage growth spurt, we are a body that has new things happening to us while we are still trying to get used to the old rules that Mom & Dad set down when we were young. New friends, new foods, new this, new that, etc., etc., etc. This new growth is giving us a chance to bring in Newbie Shooters such as Cyrille who voices strong and justifiable concerns. For those that don't recall, we have 'O.T.'s 3 Levels of Authenticity', all are posted in the 'Download' section available on the org website at: www.ncows.org
As you'll see when you visit the '3 Levels', the first is laid out and designed to offer folks an easy entry into the fold. O/.T. put a lot of thought and effort into this All the info has been published in THE SHOOTIST, discussed on various forums and now adhered to in detail by many as THE methodolgy to follow in this type of endeavor. I encourage Cyrille and others starting out to take a look and see how it may be of help. In addition, the same concept and logic follows through with individual Posse Shoots, not all require 2 Revolvers, etc., many utilize the 'Working Cowboy' concept of a Revolver and a Rifle only, some events such as the 'KVC 2 Gun Shoot' require only 2 guns of your choice, Rifle/Shotgun, Revolver/Rifle, etc. It is not set in stone that every event be a 'cookie-cutter' copy of the previous Shoot, in fact, all NCOWS Posses are encouraged to develop enticing, intriguiging and challenging events that will keep the Shooter coming back again and again as long as they follow the basic portents set out in the By Laws and all obvious Range rules, this is a given.
LCR has some very positive comments and they have generated some good replies. As Irish Dave, our new Marshal stated, "Consisitency is very important...NCOWS is working to improve that consistency within the organization." These things all take time, but look at how far the org has come and grown in the past few years, the growth in the next few will be as positive and encouraging. For those that fret about a 'competitive Nationals', perhaps that is part of the overall org change and not in the cards anymore. Perhaps it will move towards Regional Nationals taking the fore and providing those that have the 'need for CAS speed' to compete against others of that ilk while those that have the desire to relive the past can do so at the same time in a far more relaxed yet NCOWS-oriented situation. All are feasible and doable under the existing format. 
As many others have said, NCOWS is a big umbrella and there is plenty of room for all under it. If you are a Shooter in an area where there is no current NCOWS Posse and have enough other interested parties that want to shoot CAS, go for it! It only takes 3 to form a Posse, jump on it! If you feel there is only a window of opportunity for new Shooters with Rugers and '94s in your area, grab the brass ring and start a Posse, put on your own situation-specific event under the overall guidelines and develop it into one of O.T.'s 3 Levels, everybody starts somepace, you'll never look back! If you strongly feel that there is a 'need' for an NCOWS Champion, THE absolutely, one and only, Top Gun of all the Shooters that carry an NCOWS card, something for all the NCOWS members that want to shoot as fast as they can and 'win', then come up with a plan within all the guidelines, develop it, propose it to the Congress and go for it! It may not be a hit this year but 2 years down the road just what the org is ready for.
Remember Pards & Pardettes, we are a member-driven org, if YOU want it, YOU need to do it!
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925

[Lars]

Will, that is what i'm talking about, on one issue if it wasn't done back then we can't do it now, but on others if it looks close we can. I'm not talking about being competitive any more I'm talking about being consistant about the 19th century.

Without wanting to appear to side with anyone in this discussion, I do wish to strongly second what I quote from Linn County Ranger. I am writting this from the perspective of a new member that just renewed for year two.

I have had various e-mail exchanges with long-time NCOWS members about just this quite visible and very irritating (at least for this newcomer) inconsistancy. I have received all sorts of nice explanations about why the exceptions exist -- quite reasonable explanations. HOWEVER, in toto those explanations make the NCOWS Mantra "IF if did not exist in the period and can be documented it cannot be used." look all the more in serious need of either rewording or downgrading to a Guideline. It sure is not an absolute criterion.

Fortunately, my fate has been a little different that Cyrille's -- the guns I bought many years ago happen to be legal in NCOWS. I almost bought a Bisley Vaquero some years ago for use with heavy loads and a Winchester Trail's End 1894 in 44-40 almost went home with me one day because I could have mounted a scope on it for those times it would have been used for hunting. I also almost bought a Ruger Old Army C&B. Sure glad I did not buy those guns. I recently almost bought a modern Marlin with the banned ramp front sight but did not because the stock is so modern-style, which is allowed(still another deviation from the absolute stated in the NCOWS Mantra!). As it stands now, I sure am not gonna be buying any more guns for WAS.

Lars

[Trap]

 Lars,
  I believe that you have hit the nail squarely.
  If one wants to be sure their equipment (guns, leather, clothes ect) is NCOWS legal ,check the approved list!
  If what you want to buy is not on the list , Petition for its approval , then wait for the decision before you buy.
                                      jt

[Lars]

Trap,

For someone wanting to get into NCOWS and can afford to by new guns, etc., or take the time to trade for them, that is exactly the advice I would give those persons. Don't take ANYONE'S verbal (no matter how well intended or probably valid) -- check the NCOWS Website and read EVERYTHING there about legal guns, equipment and clothes. Seek explanation, clearification if you feel the need.

The downside for at least some prospective members is that they cannot or will not afford to buy new guns, etc. Maybe not within the one year grace period allowed by many clubs, maybe not ever. For example, I have not joined IDPA and may never because I simply do not wish to by a handgun ONLY for that purpose. Frankly, I don't know if I would have joined NCOWS IF I had to buy new guns -- probably not. I sure would not have petitioned for a gun's approval before I joined.

Lars

[Frog69]

Ding ..... Ding every one go back to your respective corners and doctor your cuts. Seriously
this is a problem dealing with history it is not competitive (way to many variables ) there can be an exception to almost every thing. I as well am very cautious about throwing up the THIS WAS NOT COMMON SO IT MAY NOT BE USED flag. Part of what our group is about is history not just selected history,
but, history in all its diversity.I believe people should see history for what it is Not what we would like it to be One other thought Ask your self how much money did you make shooting at NCOWS events last year or in fact any year.......That would be a big fat zero ... i have never seen any one make a living at participating at NCOWS and i have never seen one check given out for winning anything. how about we get back to NCOWS being fun...
Just for the heck of it I will state there were a early form of wrist watch in the late 1890s One version had the general look of a pocket watch strapped to your wrist . this idea  had very limited use in the USA but for the most part it is European but, thats not to say that some one form overseas migrating to the US wouldn't have brought it with them or some one particularly  on the east cost wouldn't have taken a fancy to something different and ether way could have had it with them as they traveled west....... But Heck what do i know??

[Frog69]

One more thing.... might be time to re right  the by law make them more friendly / understandable and form a  committee to look at updated and keeping it updated..... some more thoughts