NCOWS 1 members view

[Linn county ranger]

 Hello all ,

Let me start off by saying this post is not meant to start a fight or make any one mad or being picked on, and I'm posting it here in public so everyone can read it. I don't see why people think they have to have secret rooms like the tg wire on sass,  lets get it out in the open and talk about it.

My wife and I had a long talk about rejoining NCOWS this year, she was oposed since we haven't shot or been to an NCOWS fuction since 2004, I said lets see what happens 1 more year and I like the shootist magazine.

From what I read on here and the old TFS is that the competition part of Ncows is on the way out or isn't as much of a priority. I shoot With a few of the founding members and it seems like they like to compete quite a bit, thats why there are score keepers, ribbons , or some other awards handed out to the winners at bigger events or at a yearly club gathering. And I guess the uproar about the SS kits confirms that some members still care about the competition part.    Like during the Nationals in 2003 I noticed a few more people shooting Marlins.  I asked a person why,  he told me they are faster. So yes people want ss kit to compete with the Marlins and I know they aren't period correct but neither are the elastic in the tops of boots that people are wearing. I guess I always thought that the competition and dressing period correct and shooting period correct looking firearms being with friends and making new ones was what Ncows was about. There was a comment made on another post that this person new another person before they got competitive, I think that person has always been competitive , its just the new guard has gotten away from it.

Getting back to the 87 shotgun thing, at the Ncows convention in FEB. 2004 Coyote Cap was there with a 87 reproduction with the two shot feed system, it was supposed to have been looked at by the committee then and approved, I even asked the judge at that time and he said it was. I guess alot of other people thought the same thing that is why they odered them. Now the committee has to look at it again, but since it wasn't done in the 1800's they probably won't approve it. But I guess in the 1800's the shooter of the shotgun wasn't limited to only 2 shot shells being loaded in his firearm so he wouldn't have an unfair advantage over his or her COMPETITOR. They would have loaded the tube up put 1 on the carrier and one in the chamber, and not have to wait for the buzzer to go off.

I guess the last thing is the Ruger issue. It was approved because so many feet away it looks like a colt. People complain about them, and we don't allow the Bisley or the New model Single Six, but we always let them pay for a full page ad in the Shootist, that one never made any sense to me.

The way I see it NCOWS is going to be like one of those civil war competitions where you will have to have so many points before you can particapate.
 
George made a comment in the Shootist that alot of people didn't respond to his poll, may be alot of members don't like where NCOWS is going. My family and I don't so guess this will probably be the last year we join. No its not a threat, we have been members for six years and have seen a steady decline in attendance at the Nationals over the years, I don't know if it is because of date changes format changes or how NCOWS is being ran.

Thanks for your time. LCR

PS. Again ths wasn't ment to offend any one or NCOWS .

[Will Ketchum]

 Linn county ranger, no offense taken.  One must not forget that the founders of NCOWS wanted to experience what our 19th Century Forefathers did when they shot their guns.  When we modify a firearm in a way that wasn't done then we are getting away from that concept.  It's not that we don't want to be competitive but we want to do so in a manner that is consistent with our origins.

SASS freely admits that their's is a fantasy sport where in NCOWS we have a more historical bent.  We need there to be a clear difference between the two groups.  Otherwise we will just be the poor cousin of the larger organization.  We admit that NCOWS isn't for everyone, however that doesn't mean that most can't meet the minimum requirements with very little effort or expense.

As for the Coyote Cap 87.  The gun he brought it to the convention isn't exactly what he is now producing , if I understand correctly.  I know Cap fairly well and he is a straight shooter.  I'll be seeing him soon and will discuss this then.

As stated above most of us like to compete but only with the equipment that was available in the 19th century.  Perhaps allowing the Vaquero was a mistake, but it is one we have to live with.  Doing things as authentically as possible is pretty much a personal choice.  Not everyone wants to shoot black powder but to fully get the true experience it is pretty much a must.  But it isn't required.

I hope you reconsider your renewal, but that is of course up to you.  If your not interested in the historical then perhaps you would be happier with SASS.

Will Ketchum

[Linn county ranger]

Hello Will,

Thanks for the nice reply, I already belong to SASS, joined the same time i joined NCOWS. I guess That these changes seem to be happening in the past couple of years. Maybe things have been to lax(spl) for awhile and just didn't notice, then people start banning this and that it rocks the boat for the people in the middle.
By the way I shoot nothing but black powder.
Thanks again LCR

[Triggerlock]

Ain't you about ready to run out of that black powder

Hope to see you Saturday.

P.S.  I don't know how long I've been an NCOWS member, (my number is 2072 if that is any kind of indicator).  I just haven't been able to make it to a match yet.  Kind of hoping to make an NCOWS match this year.  Probably won't be able to bring Zach though, that kid is just too darn busy with other stuff.  I also like the Shootist magazine.

[Iowa Wiley Stafford]

Linn County Ranger,

I think you made some very good points in your post, and maybe went a long way around the barn to say what a lot of NCOWS members have been discussing.  All your points you made go back to one thing really, and that is this notion of changing horses in the middle of the stream!  I am sure, like many of us, this is an activity you got into because it was fun, family oriented, and could afford it on a buy as you go basis.  Not everyone in the organization is ready to retire and have pots full of money to purchase 1st gen. colts and original winchesters.  So, with good faith, and by the by-laws, we buy replicas that are affordable to shoot, and accourtments to go with.  Here is where the problem of that horse in the middle of the stream starts, as now we have some members starting to discuss banning this firearm and that caliber and this piece of apparell and on and on, when the aforementioned was approved and condoned since the start of NCOWS.  Unfortunatley, all this is going to do is drive membership away and make alot of people upset.  IMHO, the by-laws were quite fine when they were written, and I really don't see the need to constantly 'tweek' to make organization politicians feel they are doing something worthwhile. If it aint broke, don't try to fix it!  Just my two cents worth.  Sorry if I have affended anyone.

IWS

[Cyrille]

I would like to reply to the last post, if I may.
                                          Cyrille

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy Linn Co. Ranger and y'all others, too!

There seems to be something of a misunderstanding and I hope some of our posts will help clear it up.  

I'm one of the "authenticity crowd."  By that, I mean that my hopes are for NCOWS to continue as a viable alternative to the "Fantasy Cowboy" or even the "Pure Competitor" mentality of SASS.  However, if you'll read the bottom of my post, you'll see that I'm a Life member of SASS.  I'd be a Life member of NCOWS, too, but the ol' wallet won't stand for that just yet.

That said, there's room in NCOWS for the competitor.  Our own newly elected Marshal of NCOWS, "Irish Dave" Scott, is consistantly at the TOP of our club's shoot results.  He likes a bit of the competition - but he (I think) like many of us mostly compete against ourselves.  Do you see the difference?  My personal goal is to shoot a clean match; something I've come close to (by 1 miss!) several times, but not yet reached.

There will never (if I may be so bold to use a word that should never be used   ) be an end to the "competition" phase; there will always be members who want to be the fastest and some will want to look their pre-1899 best, and some will only care about reaching the minimum dress standards.  The NCOWS tent (like SASS') is a BIG one, with room for all kinds of folks.  Ruger Vaqueros were one of the few guns available (that weren't Colts) when SASS AND NCOWS started: they'll be a welcome Company for as long as we play this game, IMHO.  It was only the Bisley Vaquero, which really only sorta looked like the Colt Bisley which got the axe.   As to the Single Six, I think that was a safety issue - steel targets and 22s don't generally mix well.   And, I THINK that local clubs can still allow the Single sixes & Bearcats if their range can support their use; they just can't hold a major event and use them in the main stages, just side matches.  Pretty much like SASS.  Very little in NCOWS has changed; mostly things have been added to accomodate the "authenticity first" members, not replace all the members who may not care as much about clothing and accessories.

And by the way, I doubt that your well-stated post riled any of us!  I think I speak for all (or at least most) members:  we hope you and your wife continue on as NCOWS members!

[Irish Dave]

Cyrille:

The floor is yours, please respond.
We want to hear what you have to say.

[Trap]

  LCR and all,
  Thanks for your post. No offence taken. There is a lot of misunderstanding out there , unfortunately, I think promoted by a few who seem to have an ax to grind against NCOWS. I know none of the new officers and congress want to do anything to lessen the competition aspect of our organization. There have been a few things added , but nothing taken away. There is an Approved list, once an item is on it, it will not be removed. Some items that were once banned, are now allowed, So if anything NCOWS has become more permissive, not less. The original by-laws were great. The problem is the new products that hit the market. NCOWS is supposed to be for AUTHENTIC competition. Some things have been banned to stop the "arms race" that SASS seems to be experiencing. NCOWS has rules. SASS has rules. People accept SASS rules because they have no choice. They complain about NCOWS rules because They were exposed to SASS rules first , and compare our rules to theirs. The difference is that NCOWS rules are actually made by the members. Go figure.

[Lone Gunman]

From what I read on here and the old TFS is that the competition part of Ncows is on the way out or isn't as much of a priority. ... And I guess the uproar about the SS kits confirms that some members still care about the competition part.

Let me assure you there is no move to lessen the competitiveness of NCOWS matches. In fact, the stand that's been taken against modern gimmicks, modifications etc actually fosters a truer, more pure form of competitiveness that relies on the skills and ability of the shooters to determine the outcome rather than fueling an equipment race.  There is more true competition between two men running a foot race than a man running a foot race against a guy on roller skates    The fact that the second man needs his skates to compete in rollerderby the following week is irrelevant. They're two different sports with different rules.

Cuts Crooked summed it up nicely a few months ago: "The prohibition against corked bats has not hurt the sport of baseball." 

Many athletes claim they 'need' steroids to be competitive....short stroke kits and other modern inventions are the steroids we need to guard against.

[Cyrille]

Very well, I started to 'pontificate' last evening but the Cyber saint decided to elemiante that post which I suppose is for the best.
 Anyways I respect NCOWs stand on authenticy, It's the members decition to keep it as pure pre 1899 as they can so if someone wants to join then they have to follow the rules.
  I'm brand new to Cascity having joined at the begining of this month and I am looking for a place to shoot in competition. I have "what I thought would be acceptcal" equiptment," to join a possie I looked and looked until I found one that I liked, NCOWs because of the fact that you have something my son & I  would enjoy, the 'working cowboy competition." Now I plead ingnorence to the fact that the Bisley, in whatever caliber was not produced until 1930 or thereabouts, however to the best of my knowledge the Winchester '94 was produced and used before 1899 and I fail to see the diffrence as to weither it ejects to the side or stright back It makes no diffrence to me, I would have still bought the rifle if it ejected the shell stright back! I wanted a Winchester'94 in .45 Colt and I bought it for that reason not because it ejected the shell to the side. Now Ruger Vacqueros are still legal even though there were no such guns in the 19th Century a fact of which I'm glad,[that they are still allowed by your by-laws] but an 1894 model Winchester dischargeing a pistol caliber projectile is not
legal because of a modern inovation? one that in my humble opinon is miniscule and practably unoticable. I mean really one can spot an old model Vaquero from ten feet away or further but you would have to know what you're looking for to spot a side ejected cartridge and be quick to notice it in the heat of competition. I know the reason Vaqueros were allowed and I applaude the decision of NCOWs to keep them legal.
  We, my son and I have spent over $1000.00 on guns in the past year and had hoped to take part in 'cowboy action competition'  without having to buy more guns but it seems that one has to either have 2 revolvers a rifle and a shotgun to compete or subscribe to rules that are both inconsistant and 'nitpicking!' I have no reason to hold  no hard feelings against either NCOWs or SASS. I'm just one sorely disappoined pilgrim.

[Guage Rod]

The fact that certain clubs and posies and clubs take a break from competition and decided not to use timers, or not to count misses but allow a "pick up" from time to time or that do things that are not SASS is not all Bad. THis sort of thing keeps this hobby interesting.  (I call it a hobby because I do not know of anyone getting rich off of the sport)  I believe there will always be a competitive nature to this sport.  If humans were not competitive we would probably still be living in caves, wearing furs and throwing rocks at rock targets at the competitions.  It is more than competing against the other shooters and winning at all costs, against the clock to me.  I like to practice and and trying to improve my self at shooting and the authinticity of the clothing.  I like to think it is just as much about meeting great people who share a common interests rather than turing everything in to a arms race or having to spend an hour each day shotting and practicing.  

I am all for what ever "releases your Trigger" as long as you don't try and turn something as clean and holsome as NCOWS into a cut-throat, all or nothing kind of organization.  One that makes it so that getting the "Jump" on the Competition is not all consuming.  There are other shooting sports that do this, I may shoot with them but my home will be With NCOWS cause I like the period, the dress and the companionship most of all.  To me the Shooting aspect is just the icing on the cake.  If there is a reason for plot to the bang and clang all the better.  

I am not trying to force my ideas or will on anyone.  Just fessing up to what warms the cockels of my heart.  I am not a threat to the competitors cause my life has a lot of other diversions and I am not willing or able to practice as much as it would take to be a contender.  I may be  ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder), but if I feel like I must do something, it begins to feel like work.  

I do not have a problem with any aspect of safety on the range.  We  want to keep this sport in a positive light and allow all to feel safe in competing, with this there is no compromise.  

"Stepping off of Soap box now", hope I don't fall off!

Vaya con Dios, Amigos

[Will Ketchum]

No problem Frank.  We all get a bit out of sorts from time to time.

Your weelcome to ride with me anytime.

Will Ketchum

[Wymore Wrangler]

Gee, I alway thought the Nationals were a competive match...

[Sam Perfye]

Folks, I had the great good fortune to attend NCOWS 1st national shoot. I talked to many of the "founding fathers" of NCOWS and decided that this was my kind of game. Now at the time I had a Ruger Blackhawk and a model 94AE, both in .45 colt. I was informed that niether of these weapons were legal for NCOWS competition. I didn't cry or throw a hissy-fit, I simply sold/traded these guns for ones that were allowed in the by-laws. It took about 4 years for me to get to a minimal level, that being before there were many vendors in my neck of the woods. This was not a problem because this was what I wanted to do. IMHO the rules of NCOWS are the same as anyother sport/game, you either abide by them or go on to something else. I occasionly play golf, my score on the course would be alot better if I started out 100 yds. closer to the hole, But that's not the way it's played. So I start where everyone else does and let my score be what it may. Sorry for rambling like this and I hope I haven't offended anyone. See Ya on the range.

[Irish Dave]

Good points, Shalako, and I hope to have an opportunity to shoot with you sometime.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

WW Said:

Gee, I alway thought the Nationals were a competive match... Huh

So.....Whats your point Wymore.....

Bill

[Linn county ranger]

Hello again,

I was going to thank everyone for being civil on here but I think that is changing.
And I guess the point I was tryimg to make in my first paragraph was missed, alot of people have posted before on here and TFS  that when they are shooting a NCOWS event they are more laid back and don't push them selves as much as they do in SASS. But I guess by the responses people care more about it then they think.
I was asked by a person on here what I would like to see in NCOWS, That would be consistency, we are banning firearms that have modern modifications,which I don't have a prblem with , yet we allow people to wear boots with elastic in the tops so they expand a modern modification, pocket watches with batteries a modern modification, wrist watches but I'm not sure what time they came about. I have a 1902 Sear Roebuck cat. and they aren't in there so I guess they are not in our time period.
A person stated that NCOWS has rules, I know that and I follow the rules and I'm not trying to change them. I'm trying to understand why some things that are considered banned and others aren't.
And why when someone questions what is going on or asking about a rule change the first responce is, we have rules if you don't like it join SASS. Last I knew SASS was run by the Wild Bunch, NCOWS is run by its members and the members shouldn't be afraid to ask a question or say how they feel in an open forum as long as it is done accordingly. Which I hope I have done. So if we are going to be 19th century lets do it , not be hardcore on some things and soft on others.

[Cyrille]

Well Mr.Shalako; ya hav yore take on th matter bein discussed 'n Ah hav mine.  If ya hav no objection ta the rules o a group 'r y'u like what y'u see then 'go fer it. Ta mah eyes this group looks fine on th surface 'n one kin start ta walk out into th water but heven help y'u when ya reach th 'drop-off point. Ah'm 'jest glad Ah thought ta bring mah 'water wings'  'n thet Ah looked afore Ah lept''n got 'n got 'n too deep. Ah'm not sayin th rules weren't thar fer all ta see, Ah'm sayin thet when Ah bought mah gear Ah hed no idee thet Cas, Sass 'r NCOWs existed 'n when Ah did look inta joinin a Possie Ah found thet th rules o these organizations did not suit mah criteria so's Ah'll jest keep a lookin til Ah find sumthin thet does. Ahhav no bad feelins toward any group, 'n fact Ah admire them fer stickin ta their guns even if I don't agree with them. I don't agree so Ah jes say "thankee fer yore time sir(s) but Ah'll jest keep a lookin."

[Will Ketchum]

Linn county ranger, there were boots with elastic.  As for battery pocket watches, well they serve the same purpose and are mosly out of sight.  I don't think they make telling time any easier Neither the boots nor the watch give a competitive edge nor do they detract all that much from the impression.  We often speak about the "eye of the camera" what this means if it looks right in photograph and gives no competitive edge as a shooter they are okay. 

Will Ketchum