B.P. loads for the "Old Model" Ruger Vaquero .45 caliber

Cyrille · February 20, 2006, 06:08:41 PM

I am thinking how much fun it would be to become a "Dirty Rat" I'm already a Rat but I'm squeaky (no pun intended) clean. So if'n any o y'u "Dirty Rats" would like ta welcome another "Squeaky (no pun intended) clean Rat inta yore dirty domicile ~~Ah need all the info Ah kin git pronto!~~

Lars · February 20, 2006, 06:16:16 PM

Cyrille,

Welcome to the smokey side!!

Check out the various informations in thread I started on Round Ball Loads for 45 Colt. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,7779.0.html

The loads given by me and others can be used to get you started just as fast as you can buy a can of some sort of smokey powder. Don't even have to buy special BP bullets to get started.

Lars

Cyrille · February 20, 2006, 06:47:37 PM

Thank y'u kindly Mr. Lars I shall follow yer advice.

Dick Dastardly · February 21, 2006, 07:54:54 AM

Howdy Cyrille, and Welcome!

A couple of questions will help you get some more helpful answers to your quest. First, are you a handloader now? Second, if you are, what projectiles have you been loading and how many do you have on hand?

With this info it will be easier for pards to give you some benefit from their experiences. I won't hasten to throw out any suggestions till I can learn more about what your preferences are.

Enjoy the smoke.

DD-DLoS

Cyrille · February 21, 2006, 08:32:34 AM

I'm reloading now, have been for about a year; useing 200 gr RNFP in my Ruger(s) However I load 250 gr. rnfp in the .45 Bisley, Old Model both guns my Old Model Vaquero and the Bisley have been useing "Titegroup as the propelent.
I have around eigt or nine hundred RNFPs couting both the 200gr and the 250gr bullets bought from N.B.C.

Lars · February 21, 2006, 10:06:25 AM

Cyrille,

With that supply of bullets on hand you have two excellent choices of smokey powders --- 777 FFG and APP Gold FFFG/Pinnacle. Both work really well with ordinary hardcast, hardwax lubed bullets. Look for these powders in some of the big chain stores, such as Bass Pro (APP), Walmart (777 in some parts of the USA), Sportsman's Wearhouse (mostly west of Mississippi) that sell at discount. Both can be bought for about 18.00 dollars per pound at such stores.

Either of these two smokey powders will get you started for only the cost of the powder. Both clean up as easy as it ever gets to be. Both make lots of smoke and bang.

Hodgdon gives excellent loads for 777 FFG. These may give more velocity in 45 Colt than you would like. If so, they can be downloaded by one of two time-honored ways -- put a fiber wad under the bullet or seat the bullet deeper and crimp over the ogive. Either gets you down to about 30,0 grains volume with the 200 grain bullet (do verify for yourself that there is no air space under the bullet+wad). 777 FFG weights 0,734 as much as most traditional BPs, so for 30,0 grains volume I load 22,0 grains by weight.

APP Gold/Pinnacle gives much less velocity than 777 FFG (which performs very much like Swiss FFFG) so there should be no reason to decrease the powder at all. Check Cptn. George Baylor's website for loading information (he can be found on the SASS Wire). He uses APP and Pinnacle extensively. He also gives the weight to volume data for APP and Pinnacle.

The only prep I would definitely recommend for your Rugers is to polish the cylinder (base) pin and its hole in the cylinder with some 320-400 grit emery paper. However, if you have installed aftermarket oversize pins, I would switch back to the stock pins. Having enough clearance between the cylinder pin and its hole in the cylinder is one of the crutial parameters to an excellent BP revolver. Standard Ruger cylinder-end of barrel gap is excellent for BP usage. Any good oil on the cylinder pin is fine -- I use RemOil. IF, perchance, the front of the cylinders have become coated with a hard layer of crud from nitro powders, I would get if off too -- it can serve as "adhesive" base for BP powder fouling that will stick poorly, if at all, to the clean metal surface.

Enjoy!!
Lars

Cyrille · February 21, 2006, 02:51:09 PM

How about GOEX FFG (prefered) or FFFG? I can get my hands on that brand quicker than the others mentioned.
I also have BP measures from my "Buckskinnin" days; so I should have no problem loading by volume as it should be done.

Lars · February 21, 2006, 05:01:00 PM

Cyrille,

Use of Goex FFg or FFFg (have used both, not a lot of difference) requires lots of lube, even in revolvers. I used it with commercial hardcast, hardwax lubed bullets for a year or so by putting a good sealing fiber wad on the powder, some Crisco or Bore Butter on the wad and then seated the bullet. Worked just fine, even in rifles, although not as good groups as a more "proper" load.

How long the cylinder in your Ruger will continue to turn easily with such loads will depend partly on how much lube you use and maybe on the gun itself. I have one Ruger that just keeps on shooting even really bad BP loads, in part because it has a relatively sloppyly fitting cylinder pin. Not so the other, especially when it has an aftermarket, oversize cylinder pin. Still, the other goes through a 5-6 stage match with no problems.

The following load will get you started for absolutely minimal cost.

The Goex FFFg load I settled on for use with hardcast, hardwax lubed bullets in 45 Colt was 30,0 grains volume or weight, soft fiber wad at least 3,0 mm thick that sealed the case tightly (keeps the lube from getting into the powder) was pressed firmly onto the powder, followed by a deepseated 180-200 grain bullet, crimped over the ogive. Recoil was about like a normal 45 ACP load. NOONE ever thought those were downloaded, nor should they, they are really 45 Schofeld loads in 45 Colt cases. I must have shot 500 such loads in my 45 Colt Ruger. Shot another 500 such in 44-40. Never a problem, either in shooting or in cleanup. Typically, ammo was shot within a week or three of being loaded -- it was also kept cool -- never had a problem with weak loads (as if some lube had leaked into the powder).

Some folks used to go to lots of trouble to make "grease cookies". I never did, just used a "spatula" to put a fairly reproducable dollop of lube on top of the soft fiber wad.

Lars

Cyrille · February 21, 2006, 06:34:55 PM

Sounds good Mr. Lars.
The reason, besides availability, that I asked about GOEX is because that is the only B.P. I used during my Buckskinin days in the early eighities. I tried Pyrodex when it first came out didn't particularly care for it and went back to GOEX rather quickly. I have heard of other brands of B.P Such as "Golden" which was suppose to be better than Pyrodex or replace it after the Pyrodex plant blew up; I forget which. Anyway I never saw any "Golden" powder.
Perhaps the product you mention "APP Gold" the same? As far as 777 I never heard of it either until you mentioned it in your last post. Perhaps I'll try to find it at the next gun show I attend. If Hodgdon recomends it, it must be good stuff. Until then I'll use GOEX and Crisco. Now I really have to find a place where smoking is legal.
Thanks for the input I really apprecite it.

Lars · February 21, 2006, 07:09:09 PM

Cyrille,

Always happy to be able to help anyone get started with the smokey powders!! For the old BP cartridges they are the only way to go unless you want to exceed BP velocities -- and I very seldom do in recent years.

As regards APP (American Pioneer Powder) Gold, it is the apparently much improved version of their previous powder (initially produced by

and called either Clearshot or Cleanshot -- there was one of each and I never used either and cannot remember which is which). So far as I know, the Golden you hard about has nothing to do with this. Per all reports I have seen, APP Gold is the same as Goex Pinnacle -- both are new as of recent months. Neither APP or Pinnacle have been available locally for an acceptable price until a Bass Pro opened this past fall and still only regular APP.

Hodgdon came out with 777 a few years ago as a much improved version of Pyrodex. It and Swiss are my preferred smokey powders.

Pyrodex sure does have a checkered reputation from its early years. I started using it in muzzle loader (TC) for deer hunting about a year or so after it came out. Found it so much better in all regards than the Dupont I had used since the early 1950s that I never tried Dupont (now Goex) again until I got into CAS. I quit using Goex for CAS, BP trap, etc. etc. some years ago, in favor of Pyrodex, 777 and Swiss.

Some folks are now buying Wano and Schutzen BPs for quite good prices. I would recommend either over Goex to anyone that wants to use a quality traditional BP.

It is really nice to see the growing number of quality BPs on the market!! More like it was in the late 1800!!

Lars

Dick Dastardly · February 24, 2006, 01:48:17 PM

Good afternoon Cyrille,

I shoot "old" style Ruger RVs for many of my main match events. Ruger states that the guns were not intended for black powder. In this there is a small concern. First, there has to be enough gap between the end of the cylinder and the back end of the barrel. I've had 44 Magnum RVs that had too small a gap and had to widen it. I have a pair of 357 Magnum "old" RVs that were both too tight and had to have the gap widened.

This isn't necessarily common, but it is something to look for if you are shooting genuine black powder, not subs/replicas, and the cylinder starts to bind up. Usually it will happen in the first cylinder or two full and will get steadily worse till the cylinder won't rotate. If the cylinder does not start to bind up, your good to go. If it does there are two solutions. One is to cut the back end of the barrel and the other is to cut the face of the cylinder. I've done both and both remedys worked fine. After the gap was corrected the problem never returned. FWIW, end play is usually not a problem with Rugers. The manufacturing tolerences will seldom allow a gun with excessive end play to get to market, and if one does, Ruger repairs it free of charge.

I'm betting that your RVs will run just fine with black powder without any mechanical changes needed. Mostly, that's been my experience with these very fine and strong revolvers.

In order to use up your existing stock of bullets that were intended for loading with heathen smokeyless fad powder, you may have to use a BP sub/replica powder. There are several out there that will work fine for you. Then, when you are ready to switch to genuine black powder there are a few things that I can suggest that will help you enjoy all the main match SASS shooting you want to without worry about loss of accuracy or function. Please send me an email when you are ready to make this transition and I'll be happy to walk you through the simple process and get you on your way painlessly.

Enjoy the smoke.

DD-DLoS

litl rooster · February 24, 2006, 03:45:31 PM

DD

Your saying to open the forcing cone then to shoot these type loads and the cylinder should be reamed also? I am not sure if I follow. Your suggestion.

lr

Dick Dastardly · February 24, 2006, 05:11:55 PM

Neither Lil Rooster,

What happened to me was that my RVs that did have problems with binding up from shooting bp had the problem of carbon on the cylinder face rubbing against the back end of the barrel. Some carbon fouling would build up on the rear end of the barrel and some more on the cylinder face and pretty soon the cylinder wouldn't turn. When the gap was widened, I don't remember the exact amount but it wasn't much, the fouling would blow away and the cylinder wouldn't bind against the rear end of the barrel.

The first one I repaired I got lucky on. I took a flat bastard file and knocked a few thousandths off the back end of the barrel. I have a pretty good eye and it came out square enough that I didn't loose accuracy. Had I gotten it out of square, it would have never have shot well again without setting the barrel back and re-cutting it square to the cylinder. Walt Kirst did my last pair, the 357 Magnums, and he faced off the end of the cylinder a couple of thousandths. They would bind up after only two shots. Now they will run forever and never bind up. Accuracy is still great but the fouling doesn't build up anymore.

Hope this helps.

Dick

litl rooster · February 24, 2006, 05:41:43 PM

Now I understand...Thanks.