The Collapse of Winchester

One Horse · January 22, 2006, 01:37:39 PM

The 94 was not made in pistol caliber until the new Trapper in the ?1980's". I had one in .45 Colt and it never workd no matter what was done to it. I have a Browning 1886 made in Japan and it is as tightly made as a Purdy shotgun. I agree with all that USRA just missed the boat. As for Angle Eject- that was a last ditch trying to compete with Marlin and the fact that most newer hunters today want a glass sight even if it is a red dot .

Colt did try a last ditch in the Czech-made Cowboy now discontinued. They betrayed ever Colt user by managment decision not to make defense handguns, not to make other than custom shop 1911's and pandering to the Clinton presidency with claims of owner recognition technology.

If Winchester products follow Colt, the price will triple on the used market. The Marshal is right. Sports South had a single buyer buy their entire remaining Winchester inventory last week. Collector frenzy? I doubt it. Pure speculation on Winchester futures.

Delmonico · January 22, 2006, 02:03:06 PM

Acually Winchester, not USRA tried the 44 mag in the 94 in the late 60's or early 70's, few were sold though.

willyboy · January 22, 2006, 04:09:56 PM

.32-20 wasn't a pistol caliber?

Delmonico · January 22, 2006, 04:14:06 PM

It's used as much in pistols as rifles, it has never been offered in the 94 as far as I know, 32 Special and 32-40, yes.

Four-Eyed Buck · January 22, 2006, 05:14:11 PM

32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 were all introduced as rifle calibers by Winchester. Colt followed sometime later by chambering them in the SAA. These were for the 1873 rifle.........Buck

Big John Denny · January 22, 2006, 10:28:20 PM

Everybody keeps talking Winchester this and Winchester that. USRA is not the Winchester you remember from your youth. The Winchester brand will be back. If the same Japenese company bought the license from Olin, that would be a good thing. Miroku made the only decent Winchesters during the USRA period of their license.

Making outdated firearms for a rather small user group involves a lot more then just dusting off the plans and making them. You need the machines and tooling to make them as well, and neither is cheap. I guess we could have appealed to all the SASS members who wanted a US made 66, 73 or 92 to pony up $30,000 to $50,000 each to help cover those costs, but I doubt many would have jumped at that proposition just to own one of those models. USRA didn't believe there was sufficient call for those older models, so they didn't invest in that idea.

Maybe Miroku would consider bringing back the 92 if they bought the license. They already made them for Browning, and they worked.

Beauregard Hooligan · January 23, 2006, 03:50:26 AM

Quote from: Big John Denny on January 20, 2006, 04:21:34 PM
OK, I'll try this again. How many real USRA made Winchesters have you used at a CAS match. I've never seen more than one or two. Everyone uses a clone of the 1860, 1866, 1873, 1892, 1894 etc etc. Everybody in CAS talks about their huge customer base like SASS. SASS actually has about 40,000 to 50,000 total members, a lot of which never shoot and some that don't even own the guns we use. Now, look in your own gun carts. How many of you have a USRA "Winchester" in there that you shoot at CAS matches, versus those of you that have spent thousands on clones from other countries.

I have several genuine Winchesters in my practical shooting safe. Most are '97s, but I do have an '86 in .45-70, and two '94s in .30-30. One of the '94s does not count as is a rattling, peice of junk, 26" bbl "Model '94 Classic" and what one would call a TINCHESTER!. The bluing on the receiver is a strange shade of black, and all else a strange purple (kind of like the early Rugers Blackhawks), and rattles like a Garand/M14/M16 that has seen thousands of rounds on the line in basic training, because the lifter and other components of the action had the machined parts replaced with metal stampings. Winchester has done this before, selling off the firearms division (in this case perhaps only selected parts of the firearms devision) so why not do it again? To this date there are already two Firearms companies; one fabricates the ammunition and non-firearms goodies, while a separate Winchester Company builds the firearms (though some of those are built by B.C. Miroku in Japan. I have a Charles Daly OU shotgun made by Miroku, as well as a Weatherby .22 semi-auto rifle buily by the same folks. Both have served splendidly for over twenty years, so I'm not complaining about Miroku. And, I'm pretty sure that they also built my Browning Centennial Model 92 in .44 Magnum.

I will not miss the Model '70 line, as it is being beaten like a red headed step child by the Remington 700 and the panoply of incredibly accurate Savage rifles.

This brings up a separate question: Why does a Remington CDL Model 700 in any caliber cost $300 to $400 less, and show better fit, finish, and quality, and MOA accuracy (my .300 RUM shoots 1/2 MOA at 200 yards), than some of the "elite" Cowboy clones? from Italy?
Hello Folks,

Adios,

Deputy Beauregard Hooligan
NRA Life, SASS #5674 Life, NMLRA Life,
WASA #56, River City Regulators,
Murietta Posse, Mother Lode Shootist
Society

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell

willyboy · January 23, 2006, 10:42:46 AM

Quote from: Delmonico on January 22, 2006, 04:14:06 PM
It's used as much in pistols as rifles, it has never been offered in the 94 as far as I know, 32 Special and 32-40, yes.

You forgot .25-35,Pard!

Four-Eyed Buck · January 23, 2006, 12:09:45 PM

The 1894's first issued caliber was 38-55, 30-30 was a year or so later because Winchester had some issues with the steel for the smokeless proofed barrels..........

Delmonico · January 23, 2006, 06:42:41 PM

25-35 ain't a 32 Caliber as far as I know, might have missed something, I'll head to the bathroom when I get home and see what Frank Barnes says.

Hemlock Mike · January 23, 2006, 06:49:54 PM

I have an old 25-35 Win. It shoots a .257 slug. The case is a necked down 30-30 or member of that family of cases.

Mike

Delmonico · January 23, 2006, 07:23:26 PM

Yep, it came out in 1895 at the same time as the 30-30. It shot a 117 RN at about 2100 fps, updated with better powders to 2300 fps. The 30-30 shot a 160 RN at about the same speed, they also offered it in a FMJ RN as well as the soft-point.

The 32-40 and the 38-55 were the first two callibers. The 32 Special, it depends on who you ask, 1895 to 1906 are the dates I've seen, it's soul reason for being was the larger bore and slow twist rifling made it better to reload with lead bullets and black powder.

El Deguello · January 26, 2006, 05:02:31 PM

Really hate to see them go. It could be sometime before we see an increase in price in those arms, too many clones on the market and more will be coming.

Cyrille · February 17, 2006, 06:13:27 PM

Y'all r scarin me with this "poor quality Winchester talk", I ain't sayin yore rong cause I don't know 'bout the Winchesters y'all got. Ah hav shot mine a few times, very few mabbe a dozen 'r so times passin anyware frum 10 to 25,30 rounds at various times no hang-ups 'r misfires 'n purty accurate too, 2 to 3" groups @ 25, 30 yds. Course both me 'n th rifle 'r new ta each other So far Ah hav only shot "Factory Winchester" loads thu it. O by th way it's a .45 Colt.

Steel Horse Bailey · February 23, 2006, 10:07:57 PM

I'm a lot like you, Cyrille.

I started this CAS game with a couple 44M Rugers and a 44M "Winchester" Trapper. Shot it prob'ly 2000 + rounds and nary a hickup! The Only reason I switched is because I fell in love with an 1866 and it wasn't made in 44M, just 44S, and it (the Trapper) only held 9 rounds. That Trapper is a real pleasant memory and I'm sorry I let it go.