The Collapse of Winchester

[Marshal Halloway]

Copied from Michael (Wolf) Bane's blog posted today at 10:58 AM




NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- U.S. Repeating Arms Co. Inc. said Tuesday it will close its Winchester firearm factory, threatening the future of a rifle that was once called "The Gun that Won the West."

"It's part of who we are as a nation just like it's part of who we are as a city," Mayor John DeStefano said.

Read more at: http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2006/01/collapse-of-winchester.html

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Well, there are already significant rumours that the 94 and 70 are moving production to Russia.

USRAC only had 200 employees, most of them in the service area as I understand.

Its sad and unexpected, but, with how things have been going, not a total surprise.

Alot of model 94s have been produced... I think it is actually the most produced firearm ever in America for civilians.

A shame that it might go overseas, but, time will tell.

I have 2 94s, my dad has one. Next door neighbor has one. Good bud of mine has 3....

"Gone, but not forgotten..."

[Big John Denny]

There's several topics on this announcement on the SASS Wire as well. What we all have to remember is that USRA has had quality problems with their products for several years, and sales slumped because of that. Their most desirable rifles, like the Legacy was not made by them, but by Miroku in Japan.

Further, the Winchester name brand is actually owned by Olin and only licensed to USRA. That name barnd can be acquired by another manufacturer next year. There's every likelihood that a new Winchester will appear on the scene when that happens.

I hate those folks are likely to loose their jobs, but the reason they're still there is because of the many firearms being returned to USRA for repair of their quality problems. In fact, I believe that USRA recently announced that warranty returns are now to be sent to Browning for repair. Check their web site for details.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I think Colt will be next and sooner than you might think.

[44caliberkid]

While I think Winchester had a fine product line and provided a quality firearm at a good price in many areas of the market, they totally missed responding to the CAS market.  They finally made some 92's about 2 years ago, but they were "special editions" that were too pricey ( I know they were Japanese, but that's irrelevant)  They also needed to produce 94's more like the originals, without safeties and various lenght octagon barrels, in pistol calibers. I can't recall ever seeing a shooter using a 94 in competion in 5 years.  Unlike Marlin, which has responded hard and fast with numerous models for all kinds of CAS shooting.
   Colt has made the same mistake.  If USAF can make an American made Colt for around $700-$800, why can't Colt.  Or for that matter, if Ruger can produce one for $600 or less, why not the other two.
   A lot of the failure of gun companies today has to do with them not knowing their market.  And now, with the protection of commerce act passed, it should give them some relief on liability insurance.
   I also think that gun prices have reached about all the buying public can stand.   One of the December shooting magazines had a "What would you like to see" dream list, and many readers said, "Guns (prices) that a working man can afford."

[J.D.Cayhill]

Winchester (USRAC), just another sad example of a company not listening to what the consumer wants, and suspect quality on what they do produce. When something interesting was offered, it was a "Special Edition", that is marketing code for"Bend over and brace yourself". Couple the short-sighted management with expensive Union Labor and it is a wonder Winchester (USRAC) has survived this long.

I have been wondering for the last couple years when Union Labor in this country was going to price itself out of competition in the world market. Could it be that time has finally arrived?

I truely hope Colt can learn something this.  

[RRio]

Winchester (USRAC), just another sad example of a company not listening to what the consumer wants, and suspect quality on what they do produce. When something interesting was offered, it was a "Special Edition", that is marketing code for"Bend over and brace yourself". Couple the short-sighted management with expensive Union Labor and it is a wonder Winchester (USRAC) has survived this long.

That just about says it all. Couldn't agree more!

RRio

[Dick Dastardly]

Whut J.D.Cayhill said!

Since all politics is local, and it don't get no more local than jest me, I wonder whut this will do to the price of my Winchesters?

Also, my last Winchester purchase was a "commemorative".  I forget now jest whut it was commemerating now.  But, I paid less for it than I would have for a straight run high quality stock invintory rifle.  Oh, don't get me wrong.  It's well made and purty to look on but the cat was already out of the bag for the gaudy "commemorative" issue guns.  They had lower value then regular issue guns.  I took advantage of the buy and will use the gun, a 38-55, for long range SASS side matches and some deer hunting.

I'm sad to see "winchester" go, but it's not really gone, is it?  The name will live on around the world as long as the myth of the Old West lives.  Let's keep that alive and well.

Make smoke!

DD-DLoS

[Pappy Hayes]

It would be great if some pards out there that are gunsmiths could go in together and purchase the company. They could turn it around by producing the guns that are used in our sport. The quality again would be there also. Maybe we could all buy stock to help support the company.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I take no glee in saying that Colt seems to be going in the same direction as Winchester and they have really gambled on the military contracts as a salvation.  They most likely will not win the next round and in the meantime have basically ignored the gun buying public.  A few well placed sources I know personally have indicated that Colt won't be around much longer either.  Too bad because I own quite a few Colts of all makes and it is a shame that the UAW and clueless greedy management is going to drive it into the ground. 

[Marshal Halloway]

Since all politics is local, and it don't get no more local than jest me, I wonder whut this will do to the price of my Winchesters?

Good question and also.... how are the distributors and dealers handling all this?

I noticed on Wednesday that the Winchester models were no longer listed among several of the distributors and later I learned that they had taken them off the shelves until they know more about what will happen.

Many dealers wanted to order Winchester models, other did not take a chance on doing that.

There are still more questions than answers and future will tell.

Jim Shepherd on the Outdoor Wire made his comments yesterday:

With Wednesday's announcement that U.S. Repeating Arms Company (USRAC) would close their New Haven, Connecticut facility on March 31, 2006, it seemed that the last chapter in the storied lives of the Winchester Models 70 and 94 rifles had been written.

But, as is the nature of any unexpected passing (at least to those outside the firearms industry), several questions remain, and continue to be asked. The first, as you might expect, is why? "How in the world," one indignant email I received asked, "can two of the most popular guns in American firearms history just go out of production?"

Understanding the combination of sadness and chagrin that goes along with the loss of storied products, I understand the frustration, and the sense of loss. If an awareness of heritage was sufficient enough in itself, these guns would be in production forever. Unfortunately, history doesn't translate into sales.

For USRAC it came down to a business fact. To continue losing "significant" amounts of money in order to keep New Haven operating was irresponsible. To keep it up would eventually damage - if not kill - the entire company.

Losing money for a decade forced a hard business decision. To understand how long that is in business terms, that's forty (40) consecutive quarters of losses.

Industry leaders weren't surprised at the announcement. Some readily admit surprise at the amount of notice the workers are being given. A prudent business decision, the more pragmatic say, would have been simply locking the doors and quitting, ala Ithaca Gun Company last year.

An eleventh-hour rescue isn't likely. Like Ithaca, old equipment and a losing business model doesn't make the New Haven facility attractive for a prudent buyer.

So, we're now in the cleanup phase of a business closure.

Yesterday afternoon, I spoke with Scott Grange in the parent company headquarters in Utah. As the company point-man, Grange has proven both durable and tolerant through the whole process.

When I asked - again - about the possibility of moving production overseas, he was courteous, but direct.

"Even if we wanted to," he said, "there are problems associated with making those models anywhere else in the world that make the idea impossible. These models simply will not be made after March 31."

Customer support? "Service and warranty work are going to continue for the next ten years," he said, "that work is done in Arnold, Missouri, so there's no reason for people to worry."

The news about custom shop orders, however, wasn't so good.

"Current orders to the custom shop," Grange said, "will be totally dependent on how far along the guns ordered are. If they're new orders, they're probably not going to get done before March 31."

[Four-Eyed Buck]

There's a really good article in The Washington Post, of all papers, today. A link to it was posted on The SASS Wire today.....Buck

[RRio]

I don't know if it is fair to blame the unions in these cases. I think the biggest problem is inept managements that are out of touch with their customer base. There is absolutely NO REASON what-so-ever that Winchester and Colt could not have OWNED the CAS market. Colt and Winchester both have/had customer service with attitudes and they have both been selling their names for a long time.

As a former member of IAM, I doubt that the membership at either of those places are making much more than I am, at a non-union shop. Management types always like to lay the blame at the union members' feet, to cover their own inadequacies, and believe me, now a days, they have a lot.
Folks in those unions are just like the rest of us, trying to make a living, while the "fat-cats" rake it all in.


R(soap box mode off)Rio

[Virginia Gentleman]

I think it is a combination of both the Unions asking for unreasonable benefits and wages and management not understanding the market or being willing to service the customer with a reasonably priced gun.  Customer service in both these companies as RR pointed out is horrible at best.  One trend with Cimarron I am noticing is the customer service is slipping, but prices haven't risen too much while quality is high.  USFA is super all around in my experience, but even they have jumped their prices a bit, hopefully not too much.

[Big John Denny]

OK, I'll try this again. How many real USRA made Winchesters have you used at a CAS match. I've never seen more than one or two. Everyone uses a clone of the 1860, 1866, 1873, 1892, 1894 etc etc. Everybody in CAS talks about their huge customer base like SASS. SASS actually has about 40,000 to 50,000 total members, a lot of which never shoot and some that don't even own the guns we use. Now, look in your own gun carts. How many of you have a USRA "Winchester" in there that you shoot at CAS matches, versus those of you that have spent thousands on clones from other countries.

If you want to talk numbers, the NRA has over one million life members alone. That figure alone makes the total for SASS look as small as it really is.

I firmly believe that Winchester will be back, owned by some other company, hopefully US owned, since USRA does not own the Winchester Trade Name, it only licensed it from Olin. A license that was due to expire next year anyway.

USRA, like any company that made a quality challenged product, as their's have been for several years, has found their sales not to warrant staying in business. That's called maketplace economics in the real world. Get used to it.

I, for one, am not going around and buying USRA Winchesters, which I didn't buy before anyway, just because USRA is going out of business. There's a gazillion of good, older, well made Winchesters out there for sale now, and there always will be.

I believe we'll see a new Winchester within 2 to 3 years, so be patient.

[Delmonico]

Myself, any chance of me buying a new Winchester went out the door at the same time the case started ejecting to the side.  The thought of putting a scope on a 94 leaves me as cold as a -40 wind chill.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

I don't like scopes on lever guns either, Del.
I've had two Winchester marked guns, and had problems with both. The last one soured me good on them. Didn't help my gunsmith's humor either, he referred to it as "The Winchester From Hell". We tinkered with that THING for three years before we gave up on it. Finally pedalled it at a gun show for a loss..............

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Sounds like production is going overseas to either Russia or Japan. (Winchester has licensed Miruko to make the 92 and the 1886 in the past...they did a good job too, as I recall)

Time will tell.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

How many of you have a USRA "Winchester" in there that you shoot at CAS matches, versus those of you that have spent thousands on clones from other countries.

The only reason I shoot a clone is that Winchester won't make a '73. If they did, I'd have one and be shooting that instead. I started with a Winchester Model 94 only to find it wouldn't work right. Even after an action job, it wouldn't feed correctly. I sold that and bought a Rossi '92 because Winchester didn't make one. After I outgrew that, I bought a Uberti Model 73, again because Winchester didn't make one. So why are there so many buying clones? Maybe it's because others can't get what they want from Winchester, either. If Winchester offered a Model 73 today, I'd buy one and toss my soft-screwed Italian copy.

FWIW, my cousin shoots an original Winchester Model 92 in 44-40. He wouldn't shoot anything else.

[Delmonico]

The 94 was designed to shoot a longer round than a pistol cartridge, the 92 was designed for that, the master (John Moses Browning) meant it that way.  I have one of the first (pre-USRA) 94 Big Bores in 375, been used before I got it, no collector will ever drool over it despite it's serial # in the 4400 range, but it's my backup deer gun and my iron sighted gun in case of trouble, I love it and the way it thows that very hot case on my hat.

I hope someone brings back a real 94, I don't even care who as long as it's right.