rescearch on remmies vs. colt civil war

[sundance44`s]

okokok i went back and did some reading and found it ..i hate saying something if it ain`t so , click on www.blockaderunner.com .. you`ll have to do some reading but it says ... it was said the troops during the civil war would trade a handfull of colts for a remington .. i`ve seen it written many other places too .. sorry ..the truth hurts .

[hellgate]

The statement could be true but there still isn't any documentation such as a firsthand account: letter from the field, diary of a gun trader, price differential between Colts & Remingtons, etc.  They have merely repeated someone else who may be selling Remington repros. I'm not trying to hassle you but I have only read the same statement but have never seen a primary source. I would think I would have seen something in the biographies of Confederate irregular cavalry (bushwhackers) indicating a preference since they often carried several revolvers each into battle. I've read no preferences as to which revolvers were most prized. Maybe someone else will come up with an historical reference.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

OK, I can't quote an exact source.  Appararently, there ARE records showing that when mustered out and offered the chance to buy their weapons, more soldiers elected to buy and keep their Remingtons.

[St. George]

According to Ordnance Records - at war's end - 9,047 Colt revolvers and 9,875 Remingtons were retained by Enlisted men - after first having their cost deducted from their pay.

Cost was a factor in the awarding of Army Contracts - and Remington was low bidder by $2.

Given that - there were simply 'more' available Remingtons in newer condition than there were Colts by the end of the conflict...

Mostly - I'm wondering 'where' troopers would get that 'handful of Colts' since they were 'assigned' their weapon and only the Cavalry was issued the revolver as a matter of course.

Seems to me that their Officers might have something to say about the unlawful disposition of unit property...

If the guns in question were battlefield pickups - most soldiers would keep them - either to use or to sell, since a handgun - then as now - is a valuable thing to a soldier.

Just a word of caution, here - when trying to prove a point.

Cite a verifiable primary source, since doing so goes a long way towards eliminating any rancor.

This information comes from the 'Annual Reports of the Chief of Ordnance'.


Scouts Out!

[sundance44`s]

May the Gods be with You when your barrel saggs on the beloved colts .

[Dakota Widowmaker]

When reading Revolvers of the Civil War, I looked at the Army Ordanance orders for Rems  vs. Colts.

Colts were still $20+ a gun. Rems were down to $15 a gun.

In 1864 and 1865, Rem sales to the Army were MUCH more than Colts.

I heard tell of 10Ks of Rems from the "war" getting sold off to smiths around the country at the turn of the century.
Many were converted/sleeved to shoot 38spl or 5-shot 45long colt cylinders were fitted. (so I have been told)

I have no reason to believe that Rems were worth "more" to soldiers than Colts, since Colts were more difficult to take apart and clean due to the barrel wedge.

The issues shooters have today with having to swab/clean their rems during stage after stage just didnt' occur back then. They would fire their revolvers (cap-n-ball more frequently then cartridge) maybe 1/100th that we do today. If even that!!!

[sundance44`s]

I`d have to say with battles that left more than 15,ooo dead there just might be a few pistols laying a ground ..and with those numbers .. yep there just might be a few handfuls of colts to be traded . ( this is just a guess though )

[St. George]

Highly unlikely - given that there were salvage units from the Quartermaster Departments of both sides - actively retrieving what was usable for continued issue.

The tradeable 'handful of Colts' just wasn't going to happen - no matter what the body count might've been.

Most of those lying dead were going to be Infantry, anyway - killed by shot, shell and rifle fire.
The only handguns carried in those units were carried by the Officers.

Ordnance Records indicate that in late 1863 - they were no longer going to purchase Colt Armies at $14 - when Remingtons were available at $11.82.

Remington's last wartime contract is dated October 24, 1864 - and the price had jumped to $15.50.

During the war there were 72 Union Cavalry and 2 Union Infantry Regiments partially armed with the .44 Remington.

There were over 140 Union Cavalry Regiments are known to have carried the M1860 Colt during part or all of their field service - making it the number one revolver for Union Cavalry - having been issued in larger quantities than all other .44's combined.

In relating an unsubstantiated 'war story' -  try to remember that what 'someone' might think to do 'today' wasn't what was done at the time.
Also - what was related by a Civil War veteran long after the conflict often bears little resemblance to what he 'actually' did while actively serving - so take those stories with a grain of salt.

Regulations were 'far' more unforgiving and there were some truly serious punishments meted out for theft of Government supplies and equipment.

Scouts Out!

[sundance44`s]

I can see the union side being a bit more military in acting .... but it was another story on the southern side , many counts of the southern boys being out of uniform , food , wepons , some took to battle their personal hunting arms ( that didn`t hold up very well by the way ) and i`ve read counts that the union boys being better payed would buy henery rifles out of pocket ... load on sunday shoot all week . ( of course maybe those counts were made up to help henery rifle sales too .) and when the south is haveing a shortage of iron and melting church bells to make brass framed pistols , i don`t think they wouldn`t pick up what they could .

[St. George]

In large part - the Confederacy was armed similarly to the Federals thanks to their assumption of the various Federal Arsenals that were stocked with Government-issued weaponry at the time they declared themselves separate.

Granted - some of them didn't have exactly top-of-the-line gear - but what they did have was 'serviceable' military equipment - thanks to the work of those Arsenal employees over the years.

The State Militias had their weapons and equipment as well - and the same is said of the types - though some States were more 'pro-active' in the purchase of modern Colts and Sharps and such - so their troops were better-armed than the troops from the more 'rural' areas who did bring their guns with them - like their forebears did during the American Revolution - but they soon were issued their weapons upon induction.

Plus - the Confederacy patterened itself like the U.S. Army did - and with good reason - many of the Officers serving were West Pointers who left Federal Service to fight for their home states.

They possessed the training and attitude that was a mirror-image of their Classmates and so - they ran fairly tight outfits.

You can't fight effectively if you can't control your troops.

The Confederate States also wanted the look of 'legitimacy' when viewed by Europe - and so - they adopted uniforms and Regulations similar to those already in use - to further bolster their position and establish their independence as an entity separate from that of the United States.

After the first couple of battles - the South also had a ready source of Supply in captured arms and equipment.
Their Quartermasters scoured the battlefields for serviceable or repairable equipment quite effectively and they also knew that they had limited Lines of Supply and made whatever they had last as long as practicible.

Weapons - when found - were generally given to those who'd lost or damaged their issued piece and then the rest were turned in for repair and re-issue since they were badly needed by a fighting force whose supplies were drying up as the Federals got to be really good at Modern Warfare...

I have no doubt that some were 'upgraded' when a better weapon was found - that's the nature of man - but - getting effective weapons into the hands of soldiers who needed them was paramount in the Confederate forces.
Everyone concerned wanted to be able to help forward 'the Cause' and so - they did what they could.

Witness the melting of the church bells of Macon to create 'something' that could be fought with.

As to the purchase of Henry rifles - yes - that did happen.
However - in both Armies - a reliable source of ammunition was sorely needed to ensure continued ability to fight.
The Henry fired a non-standard round and ammunition delivery wasn't all it could be - so it found use with those who weren't as 'involved' as were the Line troops.

The Spencer was a great weapon - highly prized by those who used it - and the Rebels liked 'em as well - 'but' - they couldn't get the ammunition regularly and so there was relatively little Spencer usage because of that.
What the South 'could' get was powder and lead - and they could use it to good advantage when they had it - but its quality was waning as it was being locally-made.

Meanwhile - the factories in the North were producing and producing...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[sundance44`s]

This makes me wonder , what year will it be when the last shot of the civilwar is fired ? and with what wepon will it be fired from ? the pen is sharper than any 2 edged sword . never seen a subject with more controversy.

[St. George]

That's one of the things that makes 'this' conflict particularly sad.

What happened - happened - and for a myriad of reasons - none of which 'we' are truly privy to, since 'we' didn't grow up in those incendiary times and our perceptions are definitely 'not' those of our forebears - thanks due in large part to those same folks who fought that war and created what would define us as a result.

'Woulda if They Coulda'  or 'Gut Feeling' is no way to assess History - simply because we're afforded far more information than were people of that time and we come to the table, as it were, better-armed educationally.

Now - there are literally hundreds of well-written and well-researched books available - just on that conflict alone - including those in our National Archives - that can be studied in order to personally understand the whys and wherefores.

More are being written as we speak - and by talented folks.

The Civil War was a defining moment for us as a Nation.

We fought one another - in a country we founded that was supposed to be free from that sort of thing.

And because it was really our only 'big' war that occurred 'here' - no doubt we'll argue and wonder 'what happened' for generations yet to come.

Could be worse...

We could live overseas - and they've had wars beyond remembrance...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[ColonelFlashman]

States Rights was the Powder Keg, w/ the Slavery issue as the Match that Ignited it all.
I've read a great deal of Private Papers, Biographies & Diaries from the Era & everyone of them had States Rights as the #1 issue w/ Slavery as #2.

[ColonelFlashman]

Sundannie

Remington sold something like 34,000+ & Colt's was around 29,000+ as I recollect, I unable to lay my hands on my book of figures @ present.
But Remington out sold Colt enough to make it stick in my memorie, they had to, Remington had expanded the Factorie & bought a whole lot of Machainery to up production & they had to become financialy fluid or restructure the company.

[Montana Slim]

Probably the wrong forum for my "opinion", but I'd certainly pick the Colt over the Remington as my primary CW combat revolver. Now, If we we're to have a target shootin' match, I'd pick the Remington.
I've read a number of accounts / corresponence with the war dept. during/after the war & they seem to share my opinion as well.

Slim

[sundance44`s]

okokok i`m not going here anymore ! its a war that can`t be won ! think i`ll join the James gang 

[sundance44`s]

and Frank James being a Civil War Vet ... prefered the remmies !   

[Montana Slim]

Agree Sundance 

...& I didn't even correct the qty of Colt manufactured percussion revolvers vs. Remington during the 1850 - 1870'sconflict.  Coulda' turn into quite a bruhaha! 

Slim