"Cowboy" low-power 454 Casull/ 45 "Extra Long" Colt loads for R92?

[Begle1]

I've been working on getting a 454 Rossi R92 to feed 45 Colt reliably and it certainly seems (non-surprisingly I guess) that longer cartridges work better.

Max 45 Colt length spec is 1.600". Max 454 Casull length spec is 1.77". I can get 10 into the magazine as long as they're around 1.75". So I'd like to load some Cowboy-powered loads to a COAL of around 1.75".

I made some 1.75" dummy rounds with 45 Colt brass and they did seem to feed pretty good, but I was having problems getting my 250 grain bullets to stay seated with so much of the bullet sticking out of the case.

So I had the thought to use Casull brass, but at that point I'd be using an even more cavernous chamber, and also a small rifle primer, so it'd leave me in a total desert as far as published load data goes. (As far as I know.)



Does anybody have any insight on a jumping off point for a Casull Cowboy load?

I've been loading 1.6" 45 Colt with a 250 grain bullet over 6.0 grains of Green Dot, which gives me a consistent 1000 fps out of the 20" R92 barrel. I'd like to stay around that level or a bit slower, but with a Casull case at 1.75". And I'd love to use my same 250 grain bullets.

Or I guess another approach would be to use a longer (and heavier) than usual bullet in a 45 Colt case?

(I'm quite inexperienced at all of this so apologies if I'm not making any sense at all.)

[matt45]

Is your Rossi chambered for 454?  If it is chambered for 45 Colt, the 454 brass should not fit (chamber will be too short).

[Hair Trigger Jim]

Sounds like it's the one chambered for .454, which Rossi does make.

[Coffinmaker]

  Begle1

I have to ask, what is your intended use of this rifle.  If your intent is to use it for CAS, you have the wrong rifle.  Also, down-loading a large capacity case is a Krap Shoot.  The reason you don't see any loading data in that direction, nobody that will admit to it is doing it. 

Oft times, the end result you seek just isn't practical with the equipment and sundries you have.

[Begle1]

It is the R92 chambered in 454.
I read some mixed reviews before I bought it regarding how they fed 45 Colt. I was perhaps a tad optimistic.

I wanted to use it for CAS as well as a short range deer rifle. I live in Hawaii, we have a lot of rain and axis deer that hide in grass taller than you are. A stainless, lightweight, heavy caliber rifle is near perfect for wading through wet brush.

I knew it wouldn't be the most competitive CAS rifle but I was hoping it would at least feed consistently. I'm okay giving up a few seconds to a short-stroked toggle gun, but sometimes that turns into over 10 seconds as I need to manually guide rounds, work the lever back and forth extra times to get rounds seated, or (the worst) have rounds pop up too far and stovepipe as the lever goes forward. I'm sure some of that is the gun and some is me, but it does seem like it can all be mitigated with the right bullets at a 1.75" COAL.

[Sagebrush Burns]

Check some loading manuals.  As long as it's a lead bullet at less than 1400fps muzzle velocity it is legal.

[wildman1]

A few years back I had a Rossi '92 that was stamped 45 colt, but it would chamber the 454. I never shot one in it but they chambered and fed easily.
wM1

[matt45]

The one point I would make, and it is qualified, is to put in a filler or wads with your load so the powder stays at the bottom of the case when the round actually goes off.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Begle,

I'm not an expert, but why not make a few of the longer loads with your regular .45 Colt load of powder and see how that works? You can see what velocities you get and check for consistent firing. Then maybe adjust as you think you need to.

Rev. Chase
ps: I have not tried this and if questioned later I will deny everything and act indignant.

[Jeff Michel]

Any staring load of Bullseye under a 255 grain Lee, no filler.

[Begle1]

Thanks guys.
Most book loads are so far beyond what I'm looking for they don't appear helpful, but Hogdon's website does list a Trail Boss load that would be what I'm looking for:

250 grain bullet, Trail Boss, 1.680" COAL, 6.7 grains starting @ 862 FPS and 14,800 CUP, 9.0 grains ending at 1,011 FPS and 19,300 CUP

I imagine those FPS's are out of a short barrel, but they look close to what I seek, IF ONLY I COULD GET TRAIL BOSS. 


Another option I've seen discussed is to cut down S&W 460 cases, logic being that the large rifle primer does less weird things than the small rifle primer, and is more forgiving. But I'm not too eager to go that far off out to sea.

Or I could figure out how to get the bullets seated in the 45 Colt cases better. When I was playing around with my 1.75" 45 Colt dummy rounds, after a few trips through the gun, some had turned into 1.65" dummy rounds. My bullets didn't want to stay put that far forward in the case. Maybe if I could got some longer bullets, 300 grainers or so?

[Crow Choker]

I used to use Bullseye years ago for 38 wadcutters, quit when I discovered Win 231, a much better powder, not as temperamental, it's been 40 some years since I've used Bullseye. Some years ago I started using Tite-group in place of 231 for alot of loadings, believe it has advantages over 231. Have used it in loads from 9mm, 38&357, 45 acp, and 45 Colt. Another great powder I've used with great success is Red Dot, the old standby shotgun powder. Have used it alot in 45 Colt with heavy lead bullet loads and its one of my favorite for that caliber. I have used Trail Boss also in the big Ol' 45 Colt, no problems with it, it is hard to come by, still have around 3#'s left over. FWIW, I never have loaded any 454 Casull rounds. 

[Begle1]

My current plan is to set the bullet out of a 45 Colt case and crimp the bejeesus out of it and see if that works. Maybe I've been overthinking things.

If that doesn't work, then maybe I'll just buy a brass stretcher.

[Galloway]

I see no problem using the casual case and higher volume powders? Max level 45 colt loads might just fall right in with what your looking for.

[Coffinmaker]

  Begle1

Nah.  None of the Above.  Just stuff 3f APP in the case, what ever case, to the Bullet Base, whatever bullet and make music!!  Super simple.

[Begle1]

I see no problem using the casual case and higher volume powders? Max level 45 colt loads might just fall right in with what your looking for.

What would suitable higher volume powders be? (Trail Boss seems unobtainable.)
How differently does the Casull's small rifle primer behave on light loads than the 45 Colt's large pistol primer? I'm afraid the primer difference gives me one too many variables I'm not familiar with. I've seen a lot of discussion about how the primers cause problems near the top end of the envelope, but not many guys are pushing the bottom end of the envelope like I'm looking to do.


There's also usually a big gap in book loads from where the 45 Colt ends and the Casull begins.

For example, Hodgdon loads for 250 grain LRNFP 45 Colt:
5.0-6.2 grains Titegroup, 716-881 FPS
6.5-7.8 grains Universal, 742-941 FPS

Hodgdon loads for 250 grain NOS JHP Casull:
9.7-11.2 grains Titegroup, 1193-1298 FPS
10.8-12.0 grains Universal, 1221-1290 FPS

"Ruger Only" 45 Colt loads for 250 grain bullets are sort of in the middle:
8-9.5 grains Titegroup, 983-1124 FPS


Titegroup is the only powder I see listed for all three, and it's advertising even says that "powder position in large cases like 45 Colt has virtually no effect on velocity and performance", so I reckon it'd be my best shot. But how would I know how low I could go? Is there a method to "work down" to a safe load?

Begle1

Nah.  None of the Above.  Just stuff 3f APP in the case, what ever case, to the Bullet Base, whatever bullet and make music!!  Super simple.

I'm assuming this is some sort of blackpowder stuff you're talking about, which I know nothing about, but sounds like an idea I can get behind.
When I search for "3f APP" all I get are results for a dating app specializing in threesomes, which I also know nothing about, but also sounds like an idea I can get behind.

[Coffinmaker]

  Oh yessiree Bob

Get behind all of that.

APP = American Pioneer Powder.  Readily available and shipped to your door.  Bullets by Scarlett is your happy place for bullets and powder.  Additionally:

When I still dabbled in that Fad, Heathen, Smokeless stuff, my "go-to" powder was/is TightGroup.  It is not position sensitive in the case and not particularly temperature sensitive.

There are no real guide lines for seeking the Bottom.  You will strictly be "on-you-own."  However: I can relate when you load squibs and the projectile sticks in the barrel, you've arrived at the very bottom.  It's a lot like reaching the end of the internet.  Start Over 

[Cliff Fendley]

What would suitable higher volume powders be? (Trail Boss seems unobtainable.)
How differently does the Casull's small rifle primer behave on light loads than the 45 Colt's large pistol primer? I'm afraid the primer difference gives me one too many variables I'm not familiar with. I've seen a lot of discussion about how the primers cause problems near the top end of the envelope, but not many guys are pushing the bottom end of the envelope like I'm looking to do.


There's also usually a big gap in book loads from where the 45 Colt ends and the Casull begins.

For example, Hodgdon loads for 250 grain LRNFP 45 Colt:
5.0-6.2 grains Titegroup, 716-881 FPS
6.5-7.8 grains Universal, 742-941 FPS

Hodgdon loads for 250 grain NOS JHP Casull:
9.7-11.2 grains Titegroup, 1193-1298 FPS
10.8-12.0 grains Universal, 1221-1290 FPS

"Ruger Only" 45 Colt loads for 250 grain bullets are sort of in the middle:
8-9.5 grains Titegroup, 983-1124 FPS


Titegroup is the only powder I see listed for all three, and it's advertising even says that "powder position in large cases like 45 Colt has virtually no effect on velocity and performance", so I reckon it'd be my best shot. But how would I know how low I could go? Is there a method to "work down" to a safe load?

I'm assuming this is some sort of blackpowder stuff you're talking about, which I know nothing about, but sounds like an idea I can get behind.
When I search for "3f APP" all I get are results for a dating app specializing in threesomes, which I also know nothing about, but also sounds like an idea I can get behind.

Titegroup is the opposite of higher volume powder. Even though it works good I'm not a huge fan of using it in 45 colt or 44wcf. Even though its claimed to be one of the less position sensitive powders, that small of volume can be pretty much anywhere in a case not even in contact with the primer. Got to be careful using it because I think you could at least get triple load of it in those cases. Unless you can find pressure tested load data I'd abandon the idea of using the 454 case.