Cimarron Uberti R/M Type II Arbor Question

[MikeM.]

Can somebody please give me a quick tutorial on how to check the arbor on my Type II? I haven't had any problems but want to check mine and fix it if it needs to be fixed.

[45 Dragoon]

If it says Uberti  on it, it's short.
 
Mike 

[MikeM.]

Ok so what do I need to do to fix it or can it be fixed?

[45 Dragoon]

You need a washer that is juuuuuust thick enough to allow you to install the barrel assy. Then you can "dress" ("sand" in this case) as needed to get the endshake (barrel/cyl clearance) you want.
  Don't look for your endshake spec until the frame and barrel lug  meet (if they don't before you start dressing the washer). Use steel
(Oh, frame/barrel lug - where the 2 locator pins are ( if you didn't know))

Mike

[MikeM.]

Think I'm going to send mine to Alan Harton and let him tweak it

[45 Dragoon]

He may can do it.

Mike

[Crow Choker]

Can somebody please give me a quick tutorial on how to check the arbor on my Type II? I haven't had any problems but want to check mine and fix it if it needs to be fixed.

There is a double posting by Pettifogger up in the Dark Arts (Darkside Den) that explains how to check and fix. He is using a Pietta as an example but same procedure for Uberti and if the gun is a percussion or Colt open top style conversion.. One thing he doesn't say is to make sure there are no burrs on the arbor or in the arbor hole as this can give a false reading when turning the barrel assembly and receiver. There are several other ways to check also. Pettifoggers Mx and 45 Dragoons are similar, just take a different avenue for a permanent fix.

 I had planned to go the Pettifogger route five years or so ago where a brass check button used on Dillion presses is attached to the end of the arbor and then dressed down. Before doing so I took four thicknesses of brass washers the same diameter as the arbor and did a add and subtract with the thicknesses until getting a tight fight. Some took one, most took two, a few took three. Ya just got to remember when dismantling not to lose or forget to put back in. I wrote down on a sheet of paper what capper or conversion took what. Works very well for a quick fix and in my case its been a long fix. 45 Dragoons fix is similar to Pettifoggers but he uses a stainless steel screw. I've never had any of the brass washers 'wear out, distort' or anything else. The washers do work well. Some advocate using split washers. I didn't like the use of as they were like putting a spring in the arbor hole. In some cases it was too much and I could see in some instances one split washer may not be enough. Tried it once and couldn't get the wedge in. The split washer was to much of a fix.

I differ with 45 Dragoon in that he claims "all Uberti's" have short arbors, we've tossed that back and forth over the years. Most do, there are some that don't. A few other members on this forum and others on different forums also advise their Uberti Colts have tight arbors needing no shims or add on's to the arbor.. I have  one percussion Uberti Colt that is right on and a Uberti Richards II conversion that is. Another Uberti percussion Colt is so tight the thinnest brass washer I stoned down is too much. Left it alone.

 I shoot reasonable black powder loadings through all of my open top percussion and conversion Colts, Pietta's, and Remingtons. I don't try to be a modern day Elmer Keith and see how much punishment I can give my Colts and others before they stretch or break down. One of these days I'll do a permanent fix to my arbors of the open top Colts in my stable, have eight to do (all currently have brass washers), three don't need any TLC and one a 3rd Model Uberti Dragoon was worked on by HoofHearted (arbor, recoil shield ported, Kirst Konvertor cylinder fitted) who used to post alot on this section. Bought it from a fellow CAS member. HoofHearted is still in business, does great work. My three Pietta's are good to go.

[MikeM.]

Thank You

[MikeM.]

What I really need to know is if there is a dummy's way to check and see if my arbor is too short? 

[Crow Choker]

Check the post I advised of how Pettifogger shows, quick and easy.

[Coffinmaker]

  Mike M

Yes there is but it will take a little work.  You need to be able to turn the barrel assembly sufficiently off center so when installing the barrel, it either lines up with the front of the frame, or in the usual Uberti case, goes too far and overlaps the frame.  The amount of overlap will tell how much needs added to the end of the arbor.

You may find, to be able to turn and install the barrel, it may be necessary to dress the arbor and the inside of the bore in the barrel lug to get a nice smooth fit.

Another method, is to install the barrel.  Slip a feeler gauge between the breach of the barrel and the cylinder face.  When you install the wedge, that should NOT bind the feeler gauge.

NOTE:  After correcting the Barrel to Arbor fit, you WILL have to re-fit the wedge.

[45 Dragoon]

Coffinmaker is describing how to do the "Pettifogger" test which i think is a terrible test. First off, you can't install the barrel "off center" on an Uberti so to make that happen you have to dress the arbor (remove material) which is introducing MORE slop!! Why, if you're trying to remove "clearance at the end of the arbor" would you ADD clearance just to perform a test?  Add to the overall problem to do a test?

Just drop a washer that will fit down the arbor hole and see if you can install the barrel. If you can, add another washer. You can reduce the thickness of a washer when you get to the point that the stack is too thick.  That's  the Dummy way.

Personally,  I like to use a bench belt sander to remove material from the head of a ss sheet metal screw (shaft removed of course). A Phillips head bit in a drill motor to spin the screw head as you sand down the thickness. Wear glasses. 
  The round part of the head will self level when it rests in the bottom of the arbor hole.  The flat side (you've been sanding with the belt sander) will meet the end of the arbor.  Sounds complicated but it's actually  fast and easy ( 10 minutes)
Number 12 screws for belt pistols  (Armys/Navys). Number 14 screws for Horse pistols  (Walkers/Dragoons).

Check progress with wedge installed. When the frame and barrel lug meet,  then you can "dial in" the endshake spec you want.

Mike

This is not a gripe at thuther Mike, it's just a gripe at the "test" that can't be done without making the problem worse before you make it better.  It would be a clever test if worked, but it doesn't.

[MikeM.]

Will the wedge still have to be re-fit if I use the screw method ?

[45 Dragoon]

Not if you -
  Drill and tap the end of the arbor (all the way into the wedge slot) for a 1/4"X28 set screw (smooth the seating end) for an adjustable wedge bearing. With that, you can keep the wedge you have from now on.

Mike

[45 Dragoon]

Crow Choker  and I disagree on the "all Uberti's are short" because I've only worked on one that was correct. It was made in 1962 and apparently the first ones were made  "correctly" before they decided to NOT make them correctly.  Also, I've never had a factory cartridge open top here that was correct.  I've had to install a spacer in every single one.
 Also, my so called  "screw fix" is always confused because most folks won't take the time to actually read what's going on.
 Like I've already described above, the ss screw HEAD is made into a single spacer (no shim stacks from here !!!) that gets mounted in the arbor hole.  I don't like any "fixes" that attach to the end of the arbor. The "adjustable wedge bearing" is installed through the end of the arbor but should never be proud of the end of the arbor  .  .  .  It's for the WEDGE  to BEAR against .  .  .  and it's adjustable  .  .  . 

Folks that use a set screw ( or whatever is screwed into the arbor end) as a "fix" for the arbor length is effectively reducing the diameter of the arbor to that of the "screw size" (unless whatever is screwed in tight against the end of the arbor). That's not a good fix .  .     You need full size arbor all the way to transfer full size forces.

Mike

  Likewise, this is NOT in any way a slam at C.C. !!! It's just a clarification of what is usually a misunderstanding of my setup for first time readers.

[Crow Choker]

Mike M

Yes there is but it will take a little work.  You need to be able to turn the barrel assembly sufficiently off center so when installing the barrel, it either lines up with the front of the frame, or in the usual Uberti case, goes too far and overlaps the frame.  The amount of overlap will tell how much needs added to the end of the arbor.

You may find, to be able to turn and install the barrel, it may be necessary to dress the arbor and the inside of the bore in the barrel lug to get a nice smooth fit.

Coffinmaker is describing how to do the "Pettifogger" test which i think is a terrible test. First off, you can't install the barrel "off center" on an Uberti so to make that happen you have to dress the arbor (remove material) which is introducing MORE slop!! Why, if you're trying to remove "clearance at the end of the arbor" would you ADD clearance just to perform a test?  Add to the overall problem to do a test?

This is not a gripe at thuther Mike, it's just a gripe at the "test" that can't be done without making the problem worse before you make it better.  It would be a clever test if worked, but it doesn't.

45 Dragoon (one of the Mike's)-- Coffinmaker (one of the Mike's) isn't advocating dressing the arbor, the slot in the arbor or the arbor hole in the barrel assembly or the slot in the barrel assembly down to the Nth degree, i.e., taking material off to alter their dimensions. Rather as I mentioned in a few posts back (#6) to make sure there are no metal burrs left on the edges of the arbor and barrel assembly slots nor any on the arbor itself or the hole in the barrel assembly that the arbor goes into. Any burrs left on these areas not taken off at the factory can interfere with the 'Pettifogger twist test' making the test not accurate.

I've discussed this with both you and Coffinmaker in the past. I've seen where there were burrs left on the areas mentioned that showed an accurate lineup of the edge of the receiver and barrel assembly but there was still a gap in arbor and end of barrel arbor hole when assembled. Removing any burrs would show the true gap. Again, a person should not and need not remove any material from either the arbor thickness or increase the arbor hole in the barrel assembly, just burrs left mostly in the area of the two slots the line up. Coffinmaker (the other Mike), pointed this aspect to me onetime.

I've never seen an arbor that needed needed "dressing", nor an arbor slot in the barrel assembly that needed its diameter increased. I've seen some of the burrs left on at the factory making first time disassembly hard due to the fact that the burrs are 'galling' in the areas of the slots making the barrel hard to remove after the wedge is taken out. Alot of reports of that here on this forum and several others that have percussion revolver sites.

The "Pettifogger" method is and can be an accurate test if done right, making sure no burrs are present. Larson Pettifogger has been around percussion revolvers a long time and is respected gun tinker on cap guns. Doubt he would have posted his method when he did or would allow it to remain as is if it wasn't a good test. We've discussed this either here on this forum or the Muzzleloader forum before to great lengths. I've done both the Pettifogger test and on the same revolvers and your method (The 45 Dragoon Method) and came up with the same results (arbor gap).

 Mike your method works, but so does Pettifoggers, so does what I've and others have done by adding shims to the inside of the barrel assembly arbor hole, be they brass or steel shims. As I advised I did my 'quick fix' using four thicknesses of brass washers of same diameter as the arbor shaft and they work great. None of them have worn out in the approx five-six years since installing, nor none of them have been disfigured. I'll admit a solid chunk of steel like your screw method probably is better than a shim stack, both work. Advantage of the shim stack is they don't take the time it takes to dress down a screw for the right fit. Disadvantage in the shim stack is getting the right number of shims back in when reassembly, but paying attention is the key, just as making sure the right screws go where they should go in a complete tear down.

About a year ago I rechecked the arbor gap of the cap guns with brass shims I had installed originally and they are still spot on for correcting the arbor gap. I will say doing as Pettifogger showed in his tutorial installing a brass Dillon press check button on to the end of the arbor and then dressing it down to proper length or your method of using a dressed down SS round head screw and inserting it into the arbor hole are the best way to go (not much different than using brass shims IMO). Some day I'll do so, will even try your method, but right now my Colt stable of cappers with those that needed some shims to correct the arbor gap stay tight with no noticeable wear and tear or cylinder gap to wide, to tight, or uneven. I don't shoot light loads in them, nor max loads, all my loadings are pretty stiff, but not max howitzer loadings. Take care all!

Ahh....see you posted while I was typing 'Mike, the 45 Dragoon', agree with ya on the set screw method screwed into the end of the arbor. Ifin a set screw of same diameter of the arbor was used and adjusted accordingly so the bottom of the head rested on the arbor end, probably be a strong fix, not aware of any of that diameter, probably is, but never have seen. Anyway, no slam to you either. Guess it's our continuing disagreement on a few Colt things. Like your Georgia peaches when they come north.   

Gotta go, have a few things to do, then head out around 1500 hrs (Iowa, central time), trying to get a deer with my muzzleloader. Keep seeing a nice big body buck 10-12 pointer, but he stays to far in open field for an effective shot. Have seen him several times within 30 yards of several of my sniper posts, I'm either in another stand or can see him across a corn field several hundred yards from my porch. Hopefully get him before the end of the season on the 10th, if not one of his harem or one of the smaller bucks I've seen. Ah good grief, my fingers wouldn't quit, oh well, gives someone something to read. 

[Coffinmaker]

A slight miss-understanding.  The method I use does NOT remove a lot of metal from the Arbor or the bore in the Barrel Lug.  I "dress" out the burrs and tight spots Uberti leaves after machining.  I also disagree (a little) with Crow Choker, as over the DECADES I worked on Open Top Uberti guns I only ran into TWO.  Yep, just TWO Uberti open top guns that were almost right.  The rest were, in a word, ABYSMAL.

Tother Mike and I fix the same problem with Uberti, we just go about it in different ways.  In all honesty, neither method is "wrong" we just do the job differently.  I also have neat trick of just dropping a #10 stainless split washer down the Arbor hole.  That also works 98% of the time, but you do have to remember to put the washer back in after disassembly.

With Uberti, if you don't fix the barrel/arbor fit, you get a slightly different gun every time the gun goes back together.  It's a waste of time to tune up Uberti open top design guns until the Barrel/Arbor fit is corrected.  After TWO PLUS decades of working on these guns, I have never figured out WHY Uberti has failed to correct this stupid problem.

[MikeM.]

Go get em Crow!!

[45 Dragoon]

Go get em Crow!!

Sorry I wasted your time and mine.

I'll be more careful next time.

Mike

[Coal Creek Griff]

Go get em Crow!!

I'm reading this as a reference to the final paragraph from Crow Choker where he said that he was heading out to go hunting.

(I'm on the sidelines, but I hate to see miscommunication lead to frustration.  I'll step back away from the [interesting and helpful] conversation now.)

Griff