Loads for 6 shot Howell 1858 .45 Colt conversion cylinders?

[Professor Marvel]

Plus One and Like buttons to Coffin and Goon


My good 9245

Firstly, there is ONLY ONE SAAMI spec for .45 colt.

For the 45 Colt, it is 14,000cup and 14,000psi

Found here, a transcribed version of the now not accessible saami page.

https://www.theballisticassistant.com/saami-pistol-cartridge-catalog/

There is so much confusion involved, such as what units were used, LUP ( lead unit of pressure)
CUP ( copper unit if pressure) or PSI .

Then the different "load maximum". SAAMI has only the one. Other modernisch guns such as
The .45 colt Ruger revolver, .45 colt Marlin rifle, etc can handle much higher pressures and thus
Get their own loading data.

This is why it pays to get SEVERAL really good loading manuals. Not those little pamphlets on the the pegboard at the local sports store.

I recommend the latest books, but I have

2021 Modern Reloading Manual 2nd Edition - LEE PRECISION

Lyman 51st Reloading Handbook

An older Speer Reloading Manual

You should also get some of the ones listed here,

https://www.midwayusa.com/reloading-manuals/br?cid=19845&srsltid=AfmBOoqHAP28nDI4L5wJnxIREUCI2kJ3q4z2ObDqJtxvuqmm4nX14sY5


such as the ABC's of Relaoding and the
Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual: All New 2nd Edition Reloading Manual

I prefer these more independant loading references, traditionally they have had their own
Labs and writers thta test stuff in the real world. powder companies books, are far more
Limited and I fear that in the currently times of cutbacks and layoffs, the big corporations
Just dont care any more. they have their lucrative military contracts and dont care about
Joe Citizen Reloader.

I also dont trust online books much, or strange offering by amazon... i ordered out half a dozen promising
Books on welding and brazing and jewelry making from amazon, and they all turned out to be
" The Childrens Big Book of" fill-in-the -blank. I actually believe that they were cobbled together
Using Artificial Intelligence, since i could not find ANY info on the authors , etc.

At least amazon accepted the return and i got my money back. Then my review got several replies
Such as "thanks for the warning!"

The quality good books may be pricy but a small price to pay to gain knowledge, understanding, and
Avoid blowing up your gun and the hospital bills and permanent disabilities.



SOOOOOOOO

Our illustrious forum members have described the differences and issues betwtixt and between the Howell and Kirst converters quite well!

In order to help with understanding here are a few pictures linked shamelessely from the web

Historically, when cartridge conversions came out there were four "main" styles:

1) 2 piece cylinder , cylinder and backplate, with individual firing pins on backplate.
  These came as 5 round and 6 round as explained above and as seen in the movie
  "Pale Rider" . This allows the user to easily shoot cartridges with the conversion cylinder
  Or loose ball and powder via the percussion cylinder.

5 round 2 piece:


6 round 2 piece:




2) thin plate conversions like this remington, which was a "permanent change" due to the long firing pin
And the plate permanently attached to the frame and a channel cut in the frame for cartridge loading
Like this kirst



More fotos on the kirst website here

https://www.kirstkonverter.com/remington-thin-plate.html

3) thick plate two piece conversion cylinder. This one also allows the user to easily shoot cartridges with the conversion cylinder  Or loose ball and powder via the percussion cylinder. This thick plate
Has a fixed firing pin on the backplate which is a loose friction fit to the frame.



4) thick plate gated conversion. These need a channel machined into the frame, and come with a gate

These are from kirst



Here is another view with the ejector rod kit



5) gateless gated conversion these require the channel to be cut in the frame but come without an actual gate. the theory is that when the cylinder is at rest the cartridges do not line
Up with the gate channel and thus are not supposed to fall out. Sometimes the theory doesnt work so well

This thin plate conversion from kirst has no gate, just a port cut for the cartridge



The colts were also done both thin plate and thick plate in similar manners.

Hope these visuals help

you have a lot of reading to do before you start spending money on hardware.

YHS
PROF MARVEL

[45 Dragoon]

Well thanks Perfesser !!! Very informative post!! The saami ballistic copy with the pressures listed is interesting as well!! The one Brian Pearce  load I've been using in my testing is what he calls 45C +p. The loads he developed for multiple bullet weights top out at 23,000 psi (same as 45acp +p) and is published in Handloader Magazine (April 2022 no.337).
  The conversion cylinders we have available today are all really nice and the reproductions we have to put them in are a much better platform than the originals (material wise) and that is what allows the testing of the DESIGN and performance as if it were a modern design.   The results are quite amazing!! 

Mike

Edit  - To be clear, the 45C testing is  done on the Dragoon platform  and the 45acp  testing is done on the '60 Army platform.  All the "testbeds" were manufactured in the last 12 yrs and are Uberti products.

[Coffinmaker]

I tried to answer a question on Percussion Guns in the other thread but it was locked before I got my comment posted.  So Here Goes:

Percussion Guns haven't really gone away.  There are more guns available than ever and many more players of Cap Guns.  There is the ongoing problem of Cap Gunners reverting to Suppositories as we become more "seasoned" and running Cap Guns becomes a real chore.  Suppositories are in fact much more convenient, easier to load and at a certain point, become more funner.  Were I suggesting (I am) I would suggest you contact "Bullets by Scarlet" and source up a case of APP 3F.  A case will last you a goodly long time and eliminate some Black Powder shooting hassle's, like "Lubes."  Pay on-going attention to the common purveyors of components and when Caps become available, buy in bulk.

I will also reiterate, when it comes to Percussion Cylinders or two-piece conversion cylinders, NEVER, EVER, carry them LOADED in a pouch.  If dropped, they become live grenades.  Also, in the games we play, carrying a loaded cylinder is strictly VERBOTEN. 

[Crow Choker]

Ok, before any more "confusion" happens, a Dragoon is a 6 shot shooter whether cap gun or converted. The '60 Army is a 6 shot cap gun but a 5 shot conversion  in 45C  or 45acp.  Maybe Mr. Crow Choker is "mis-remembering".  The Kirst cyls have a "hammer down safety" position between the chambers except for the ROA cyls. The Howell cylinders for ROA's don't come with the safety notch but one can be ground in (since it uses the "cyl cap" setup). Both manufacturers ROA cyls are 6 shot cyls as well.
  Mike

Yes Mike, I was "mis-remembering", more truthfully I was typing and thinking from two different planets. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. My 3rd Model Colt Dragoon has a '6-shot' cylinder actually chambered for the 45 Casull cartridge to be used with black powder. All I shoot out of it though are black powdered fueled 45 Colt cast round flat nose bullets. I bought the Dragoon from another forum member who had it 'smithed' and Kirst cylinder installed by forum member Hoof Hearted (Gary Barnes). Great shooter, has right side milled for loading and ejection. No ejector though, must use a fancy rod to poke cases out.

I believe I was thinking of the Colt Model 1860 Kirst cylinder which is a 5 shot affair available I believe with two styles of cylinders. One ya have to disassemble the revolver (as with a Howell) or one with an available loading gate where it is necessary to mill the right recoil shield of the frame. I was in a hurry to finish the post as I started it while the Mrs. was getting ready for church. I was all set to go but started the post and was spending more time than I should. The Mrs. was advising we needed to leave 'now' so I hurriedly finished, didn't proof read as I should have, and hit the post button. My apologies for the confusion and my temporary 'brainlessness'! Good grief Charlie Brown!!

The Howell, R & D (Howell) and Kirst two piece cylinders DO have to be removed to reload.  Whether you use them in a Replicant Remington or Colt Pattern gun, the cylinder has to come out to reload.  This method is slow and cumbersome.  Reloading with a gated conversion is also slow and cumbersome.

Not 100% Coffinmaker. Krist does offer their conversion's for the 1851 and 1860 Colts with a gated cylinder with also an ejector for more $$. Not sure if you have to buy the hinged gate, but it is available. You can mill the right side of the recoil shield  to load and unload from what I see on their website. My 3rd Dragoon Kirst cylinder has the right recoil shield milled but no gate. The cylinder while firing index's in such a way that none of the bases of the brass are lined up in such a way to allow any unintentional ejection. As I advised it is a six bored cylinder, I assume the 5 shot versions also have the same timing. I don't have to disassemble my 3rd Model Dragoon to reload.

Reloading with a gated conversion isn't slow and cumbersome if you have a ejector rod attached to the barrel as in any other modern single action revolver or Peacemaker style 1873 single action revolver. I will admit as in the case of my 3rd Dragoon Colt that still has the percussion loading lever attached it is a 'tis' slower than having an ejector rod and having to use a slender rod to poke out the brass, but it's light years ahead of having to disassemble the Dragoon into its three main units. I wouldn't have the revolver if that was needed. I also have the percussion cylinder to convert it back to cap and ball original use.

The Remington Krist cylinders from what I see do need to have the cylinder taken out. IMO reloading percussion revolvers on a stand takes the fun out of loading with a lever and necessitates disassembling the revolver. OK I suppose for formal range shooting where you have a bench to lay everything on but even then I'd bypass that style, enjoy working that ol lever and/or not having to disassemble a Colt type into its three main units or the hassle of taking out a cylinder on a ROA or Remington type. I'll bypass on any conversion cylinder also for my Ruger Old Army. To much a PITA to go through all of the steps of taking cylinder off, breaking the cylinder, brass eject, load and reassemble. A friend had a Krist cylinder for his ROA and got rid of it due to all of the steps needed to load and reload.

Good information Professor, high fives to the rest of ya also with exception of a few minor points I mentioned. To '9245' and any one else wondering, YEPPER, get, borrow, check out copies of as many current (and older) reloading manuals/books as possible, ask questions of experienced shooters/reloaders The Lyman black powder ones are great as are Lyman's general smokeless ones. RCBS, Hornady, and Speer are all great also, use them all of the time. As far as info posted on this forum, others, and anywhere online, when I see something interesting, I always refer to the information posted with information I can compare it with in known and reliable reloading manuals. The popular shooting/reloading magazines are great for alot of information with great authors, but I still cross reference. Also FWIW shoot and reload for what the firearm was designed for, not going off the reservation in shooting more modern styles of ammo even if it fits the diameter of the original bore and fits in the cylinder and/or try to make your hand gun a hand held howitzer. JMO, mess around a bit and you may pay the price of stepping off the reservation. Take care all. CC

[Abilene]

...The Remington Krist cylinders from what I see do need to have the cylinder taken out...

Howdy CC, Kirst makes them both ways. As the Perfesser showed above, Kirst does make a gated Konverter for the Remington, plus a cool new design spring loaded ejector that attaches to the cylinder pin.  They also have a stainless version of it which I am thinking about since I just won a pair of stainless '58's. 

[Crow Choker]

Yer right on that Abilene. Guess I didn't do my homework thoroughly. Was intent on my argument that having to remove the cylinder of what formally was a percussion revolver to reload metallic cartridges defeated the purpose of going the conversion cylinder route for faster reloading, esp with Colts. I enjoy reloading a percussion revolver as designed (and can do it pretty fast if I want to) and enjoy shooting all three of my Uberti factory conversions plus the Krist 3rd Dragoon percussion conversion without having to remove the cylinder every time to load/unload.

 Having to break down a Colt and/or removing a cylinder on Rem's and ROA's, then separating the cylinder and backing plate is sort of like IMO (and proven facts) trading off a well designed good mileage gasoline powered vehicle for an electric vehicle to save on paying for overly priced fuel. Then you have the hassle of long charges at home (not cheap) and (where its not just plugged into any old 110V outlet), battery weardown on long trips, over heated batteries in hot weather, diminished battery performance in cold weather, and few and far between charging stations where ya sit for long periods of time (some with limited time allowed) making for extended travel time. What have you gained?

[9245]

Yer right on that Abilene. Guess I didn't do my homework thoroughly. Was intent on my argument that having to remove the cylinder of what formally was a percussion revolver to reload metallic cartridges defeated the purpose of going the conversion cylinder route for faster reloading, esp with Colts. I enjoy reloading a percussion revolver as designed (and can do it pretty fast if I want to) and enjoy shooting all three of my Uberti factory conversions plus the Krist 3rd Dragoon percussion conversion without having to remove the cylinder every time to load/unload.

 Having to break down a Colt and/or removing a cylinder on Rem's and ROA's, then separating the cylinder and backing plate is sort of like IMO (and proven facts) trading off a well designed good mileage gasoline powered vehicle for an electric vehicle to save on paying for overly priced fuel. Then you have the hassle of long charges at home (not cheap) and (where its not just plugged into any old 110V outlet), battery weardown on long trips, over heated batteries in hot weather, diminished battery performance in cold weather, and few and far between charging stations where ya sit for long periods of time (some with limited time allowed) making for extended travel time. What have you gained?

The idea I had was to use the end of the loading lever as an ejector rod.  Basically push out the cylinder, hold the revolver and the base plate in the off hand, eject the cartridges with the strong hand, transfer the revolver to the support side armpit, shift the cylinder to the support hand, load from the belt, put the base plate back on, shift the cylinder back to the support hand, retrieve the revolver with the strong hand, and then reinstall the cylinder.  A dance to be sure, but with practice I would imagine that it would work nearly as well as a gate loader.  I'm just trying to think how they would have used two piece cylinder style conversions in period and that was all that made sense.

[Coffinmaker]

9245,

You're not paying attention "again."  My statement you so aptly quoted specifically applied to the TWO PIECE conversion cylinders.  I addressed gated conversions SEPARATELY. 

Comparing reloading SAA pattern guns, and Remington pattern guns to modern swing out cylinders with speed loaders or moon clips or self loaders, a reload of the 19th century pattern guns IS slow and cumbersome especially if someone is shooting at you.  I don't much care if there is an attached ejector or not, Reloading an SAA pattern gun is slow and cumbersome.  By the way, I'm really good at it.  Been doing it for around 50 years.  Wanna Race??

[Coffinmaker]

  Aw Krap 

My apologies 9245.  Twaz my own reading caused me to take an un-kind whack atcha for not paying attention.  The guilty party in this instance was Crow Choker.  And myself.  I shouldn't be commenting when my Caffeine LOW LIGHT is glowing brightly.

Howsomeever.  There is no "fast" way to reload a two-piece cylinder.  I've been using conversions with two-piece cylinders as Main Match guns for the last 7-9 years and they work quite well for Fun and Games.  Not so much if it's for survival.  If the adrenaline is running high and you're scared for your life you ARE going to drop something.  For playing our game, taking the gun apart is a great idea, as I wipe down the Cylinder Face, Barrel Breach and Arbor so the gun runs as well on stage 6 or 10 as it does on the first stage.  Since I shoot Gunfighter, I cannot afford ANY of my guns to have "hiccups."

Hopefully this makes sense.  Oh, I forgot to mention.  I have just ordered TWO brandy knew Kirst Konverters for the guns with R & D two-piece in them.  Taking the guns apart every stage, punching the empties out (some don't "fall" out) and reloading has become a Royal PITA.  Stay Tuna.

[Crow Choker]

Aw Krap 

My apologies 9245.  Twaz my own reading caused me to take an un-kind whack atcha for not paying attention.  The guilty party in this instance was Crow Choker.  And myself.  I shouldn't be commenting when my Caffeine LOW LIGHT is glowing brightly.

Huh!?!? I'm just a young lad fresh of of the farm, innocent as the wind driven snow 
I'll admit my posts haven't been the best I've ever written on the Forum. First one hurried to make it to church on time, the 2nd one I wrote over the course of two hours during commercials of two of the only 4-5 show the Mrs. and I turn on the Boob-Tube for. BUT, pretty much what I posted is learning, experience, and observations since buying my first revolver in April of 1970 (Ruger SS6 .22) and since 1972 when buying my first cap and ball revolver (Euroarms 1851 .44). Alot added since which includes around 13-14 cappers and four conversions.

  I'll stand by what I've posted about it being a PITA to dissemble what was a percussion revolver after turning it into a cartridge one or even doing so if it is still percussion. IMO it is easier to reload a percussion revolver with loose powder, ball, and cap than have to dismantle a revolver no matter what brand or model it is to get rid of fired brass and reload. Even if having a table, bench, flat rock, whatever to reload, I wouldn't shoot a converted or even an unaltered percussion revolver by breaking it down to do so. Stickin to my story, don't care how many empty brass are tossed at me.

 

The idea I had was to use the end of the loading lever as an ejector rod.  Basically push out the cylinder, hold the revolver and the base plate in the off hand, eject the cartridges with the strong hand, transfer the revolver to the support side armpit, shift the cylinder to the support hand, load from the belt, put the base plate back on, shift the cylinder back to the support hand, retrieve the revolver with the strong hand, and then reinstall the cylinder.  A dance to be sure, but with practice I would imagine that it would work nearly as well as a gate loader.  I'm just trying to think how they would have used two piece cylinder style conversions in period and that was all that made sense.

Lots of luck 9245 with that procedure. May sound easy, simple, and efficient thinking mentally about doing so, but that won't be the way it goes everytime. You'll soon depart from it after seeing how difficult it is. Sort of like trying to thread a needle IMO holding on to a couple of watermelons. Best way to do it if you go the conversion route on your Remington is to get it, install it properly, and then by trial and error find the most efficient way to reload.

On another forum posters were asking how did shooters reload back in the day in gun fights, riding a horse, running from hostiles/bandits. The knowledgeable posters just advised that's why in the 1800's they carried 2-3 guns on person, maybe 2 attached to the saddle-maybe an extra cylinder or two, but try changing cylinders running or on a horse at full lope. Something's gonna drop.

 My advice is to go with a gated cylinder conversion, if you can't mill the right recoil shield properly for loading/unloading, search out someone to do so and properly install and time the revolver. You'll be alot happier I believe going that route no matter what any extra cost may be. Loading channels/gates forever. Keep asking questions, wish a forum like this was around back in the 70's when I started the percussion game. Those were the days!!!!! CC

[45 Dragoon]

A like for Crow Choker.

[Coffinmaker]

ABSOLUTELY a LIKE for Crow Choker's latest.

It be Spot On.

[9245]

Huh!?!? I'm just a young lad fresh of of the farm, innocent as the wind driven snow 
I'll admit my posts haven't been the best I've ever written on the Forum. First one hurried to make it to church on time, the 2nd one I wrote over the course of two hours during commercials of two of the only 4-5 show the Mrs. and I turn on the Boob-Tube for. BUT, pretty much what I posted is learning, experience, and observations since buying my first revolver in April of 1970 (Ruger SS6 .22) and since 1972 when buying my first cap and ball revolver (Euroarms 1851 .44). Alot added since which includes around 13-14 cappers and four conversions.

  I'll stand by what I've posted about it being a PITA to dissemble what was a percussion revolver after turning it into a cartridge one or even doing so if it is still percussion. IMO it is easier to reload a percussion revolver with loose powder, ball, and cap than have to dismantle a revolver no matter what brand or model it is to get rid of fired brass and reload. Even if having a table, bench, flat rock, whatever to reload, I wouldn't shoot a converted or even an unaltered percussion revolver by breaking it down to do so. Stickin to my story, don't care how many empty brass are tossed at me.

 
Lots of luck 9245 with that procedure. May sound easy, simple, and efficient thinking mentally about doing so, but that won't be the way it goes everytime. You'll soon depart from it after seeing how difficult it is. Sort of like trying to thread a needle IMO holding on to a couple of watermelons. Best way to do it if you go the conversion route on your Remington is to get it, install it properly, and then by trial and error find the most efficient way to reload.

On another forum posters were asking how did shooters reload back in the day in gun fights, riding a horse, running from hostiles/bandits. The knowledgeable posters just advised that's why in the 1800's they carried 2-3 guns on person, maybe 2 attached to the saddle-maybe an extra cylinder or two, but try changing cylinders running or on a horse at full lope. Something's gonna drop.

 My advice is to go with a gated cylinder conversion, if you can't mill the right recoil shield properly for loading/unloading, search out someone to do so and properly install and time the revolver. You'll be alot happier I believe going that route no matter what any extra cost may be. Loading channels/gates forever. Keep asking questions, wish a forum like this was around back in the 70's when I started the percussion game. Those were the days!!!!! CC

I was just brain storming how it might have been done.  I foresee no realistic scenario where I would actually have to do that.

[Mogorilla]

I will throw my change in here as i have both conversion cylinders on Remingtons.  I prefer the Howell.   It is two piece.  I eject as 9245 described, drop the cylinder backplate quickly goes to vest pocket and the loading lever pokes out spent cartridges.   Load 5 or 6 more from other vest pocket, put on back plate and back in pistol.  I am faster with that than the gated conversion with spring ejector.   It is my preferred reloading method and do it at GAF each year, as it is my go to pistol.   As to loads, i use 30 grains of ffg goex, fibre wad and a 250 grain bullet.   It has knock down power, makes a great boom and lots of smoke.  Between stages a quick wile down and relube of pin keeps it rolling all day.    I have a pietta peacemaker in 45 colt as well but the howell conversion gets used 90% of the time.    I do not shoot SASS but do Gaf and NCOWS regularly.  Am an NCOWS senetor and out Posse hosted NCOWS nationals last 4 years.   Letting another posse have the fun this year.