Starting out with Black Powder --.45-70 advice?

[Doc Holloman]

Looking for advice, direction and if necessary, a reality check here.  After shooting my original trapdoor carbine with light smokeless handloads (8.5gr of Unique behind a 300 gr coated Quality Cast  flat point bullet) in the Cody Dixon category this year , I am heeding the advice of multiple pards and switching to back powder for this gun.  Since I have never fired, much less loaded a black powder round before, I am basically starting from square one.

 For those unfamiliar with Cody Dixon, basically a rifle caliber single shot (or in another category, lever gun) rifle replaces the pistol caliber rifle and fires 6 shots per stage at targets at about 50 yards.  So in a five stage match, a Cody Dixon rifle will fire 30 rounds.  I anticipate shooting two matches per month, back to back on the same weekend. )

I only intend to load black powder for .45-70  and only for the trapdoor carbine shooting at .50 yards.  With the loads I have been using, (about 1000fps) anything but the lowest sight setting overshoots the target.
I see conflicting advice online regarding powder measures.  I recently retired my RCBS measure and went to a digital powder measure/dispenser in part because the RCBS had become unreliable, having to be reset every 4-5 throws.  I don't imagine the digital unit is appropriate for black powder , however, so guess I need a need a dedicated powder measure.  I assume my digital powder scale is OK so long as I replace the plastic powder tray with a metal one.  Am making a powder drop.

The only bullets I have on hand are 300 grain coated bullets, which I have been told are not appropriate for black powder.  Looking for uncoated bullets, initially for unlubed bullets since I understand that some of the factory lubes  can cause fouling with black powder.  Am willing to experiment with different bullet  weights and loads – considering the short range I don't think I will be shooting the full 70 gr.  I have f and ff powder on order.   Which raises a question, with reduced loads, do I fill the space between the powder and bullet with wads?  What kind should I use?  With my smokeless loads I have been using tufts of Dacron polyester fill to hold the powder in the base of the case, but it doesn't compress it at all.

Shooting 30 rounds in a match, am I going to need to do anything too mitigate bore fouling between stages?  Suggestions?

 Process for cleaning after a match?

I know this may seem  to  be a lot of really basic stuff but I admit to having absolutely no black powder knowledge or experience. 

Appreciate any advice.

Doc.

[Cap'n Redneck]

The original TrapDoor carbine load was 55 grains blackpowder behind the 405 grain lead bullet.  The difference from the 70 grains infantry rifle load was taken up by wads.

I would suggest getting Swiss 1,5 Fg blackpowder if possible; it is the cleanest burning type that I know of.  "Olde Eynsford" (by Goex?) is a close second. 

You could start with 50 grains of blackpowder and work up or down in 5 grain increments from there.

Try Sesame-seeds as a filler between the powder column and the bullet.  Sesame-seeds contain up to 50% oils, and might be just the trick to get the amount of lubrication you need with the coated 300 grain bullets. There should be no need for wadding between the powder/sesame-seeds/bullet, but a milk-carton wad acting as a "gas check" under the bullet won't hurt.

With blackpowder the exact powder weight is not as critical as with smokeless.  You don't need a special powder dispenser.  You can make a scoop out of, say a .30-06 case; cut off the neck so it becomes a straight-wall case, twist a piece of bailing wire into a handle, fastening one end in the extractor groove and making the other end into a 4 inch handle.  Might have to secure it to the case with some solder or glue.
Then you just pour blackpowder into a bowl and scoop it up and pour it into your cases.  The scoop can be cut down with a hacksaw and filed to the required length for the amount of powder you deem optimal for your use.

At only 50 yards you could even try loading a .457" round ball for percussion revolvers in the .45-70 case... -it will definitely ring steel at that distance.
I believe I've seen pictures of original .45-70 cartridges with roundball loads that were termed "Forager rounds".

Clean-up is easily accomplished with luke-warm water and a little dish-washing detergent added.  You can also look for a spray-bottle of "Windex with vinegar" at your local K-Mart / Wal-Mart; it was the preferred blackpowder clean-up medium of the late Mike Venturino.  You should also drop the recently fired cases into a plastic jug with soapy water at the range, it will make clean-up easier when you come home.

Consider getting a plastic funnel, fitting about a 6 inch length of hose to it that will fit into the chamber of the TrapDoor carbine; that way you can flush most of the gunk out the muzzle before you start swabbing the bore.

If you are getting lubed bullets you can't go wrong with SPG blackpowder lube.

[Professor Marvel]

I fully support everything the good Capt told you.
Lighter loads with greased wads or filler is good, easy on the wallet and the shoulder.
I especially like the .458 or so roundball loads.

These days with powder prices what they are, stretching your powder dollar is only smart
For punching paper or ringing gongs.

Yhs
Prof marbles

[Ranch 13]

70 grains of 2f black powder, under a .030 fiber wad with a 405 grain bullet cast from either 20-1 or 16-1 alloy lubed with a good bp cartridge lube ( my preference is Bullshop Nasa) cases primed with a large rifle primer.

[pony express]

The Captain had good advice. I will add, though, that at 50 yards, most trapdoor loads I have used require at least a 6 o'clock hold to not over shoot the target. At least that has been my experience with sass type targets-6 o'clock will get hits on the upper part of the steel as cas ranges. One option for powder measure is to go somewhere that has muzzle loader supplies and get an adjustable powder measure. Basically it's just a brass tube with an adjustable plug, and markings for the approximate grain weight.

[Coffinmaker]

  Doc 
Ah well.  NONE of the above.  I know your OP inquired of Black Powder, but I'd be directing your attention to APP and/or Shooters World Black.  Both are excellent Substitutes, are easy to clean-up and require NO lubricants.  That's right, NO lubricants and you can shoot coated bullets all day.  The barrel fouling from APP is also not cumulative.  Each shot cleans out the previous fouling.  Reducing the charge is done with simple fillers (I like Cream-0-Wheat).

I have shot with my close shooting compadre who shot the 45-70 for Planesman.  His round was a reduced load and Round Ball.  Shot like a laser and rang steel just fine.  Just crimp the round ball at its equator and shoot away.  Just another option to muddy the waters.

[Abilene]

Howdy Doc,
As much as I love black powder, I find myself agreeing with Coffinmaker ( ).  Since this is the only smokey thing you plan to shoot and at such a short range, APP is so easy to use that it would be a good starting point, and you could always graduate to real BP if you wanted.  You can also use your coated bullets.

The little plastic pan on your digital scale is fine for real BP as well.  Also, at 50 yards, a couple tenths of a grain (BP or APP) in either direction will make no difference in your results.  So whether you use a measure or dippers, don't fret that detail for this simple task.  If you get to shooting long range, everything will change. 

[Doc Holloman]

Howdy Doc,
As much as I love black powder, I find myself agreeing with Coffinmaker ( ).  Since this is the only smokey thing you plan to shoot and at such a short range, APP is so easy to use that it would be a good starting point, and you could always graduate to real BP if you wanted.  You can also use your coated bullets.

The little plastic pan on your digital scale is fine for real BP as well.  Also, at 50 yards, a couple tenths of a grain (BP or APP) in either direction will make no difference in your results.  So whether you use a measure or dippers, don't fret that detail for this simple task.  If you get to shooting long range, everything will change. 

Thanks for the advice Abilene.  I have to go to Kerrville Tuesday and I think I saw APP at Gibsons.  The true BP shooters badmouth BP substitutes so much that I hadn't considered it. If it is there I qill pick some up and give it a try.  Will save me buying sesame seeds in bulk.  See you at Shindig.

Thanks to everyone for the advice,   A number of options to try.

[Abilene]

In the bp loading article on my website I say "substitutes are fun. BP is funner!" It's a good intro to bp. Many cas shooters just stick with it for convenience, and they get the smoke but not the rest of the experience. Each to his own. I just started loading APP in 32-20 for the rifle because that little bore fouls easy. And bore cleanup is quicker and I am lazy.   seeya Saturday

[Hair Trigger Jim]

I will add that APP is different enough from other substitutes like Pyrodex that it really should be evaluated on its own merits.

[Coffinmaker]

  Hair Trigger Jim 
May the fleas of a Thousand Camels infest yer armpits    (For even mentioning Pyrodex)

Pyrodex is a RUSTING AGENT that just happens to burn.  It should be allowed NOWHERE near a firearm EVER!!

Not that I'm opinionated you understand.  And I agree.  APP should be evaluated on its own merits.  Also, many proponents of Black Powder seem to be jaundiced against ANYTHING else.  Contrary to some opine (snicker snicker) APP be funner.  Also, Shooters World Multi Black is also made by APP and was previously known as "Black MZ."

Have a Ton of Fun you betcha

[Ranch 13]

There are a ton of smokeless powders that do what APP does only better, sans the fake smoke.
So my question has always been why use it in place of smokeless and if you want real gunsmoke, then go with black. 1,2,and 3 f all work quite well in the rifle cases.

[Hair Trigger Jim]

There are a ton of smokeless powders that do what APP does only better, sans the fake smoke.
So my question has always been why use it in place of smokeless and if you want real gunsmoke, then go with black. 1,2,and 3 f all work quite well in the rifle cases.

Do you have any suggestions for smokeless powders that are recommended for use without any bullet lube?

[Ranch 13]

Cast bullets need to be lubed unless they're powder coated
Jacketed bullets don't need lube
Smokeless tha is historically proven with cast and jacketed
Unuque,2400,4227,5744,4198, rl7,3031,4895, and there is wuite the following of shooters that use the surplus powders suck as wc870
 The youth load data from higdons using 4895 is quite good for squib type loads
Lyman's reloading handbook or subscription to loaders.com are both valuable assets to a reloaded

[Hair Trigger Jim]

I was just referring to the fact that APP does not require any lube with cast bullets, and wondering if you have a smokeless powder that specifically does that.

[Ranch 13]

You can use app without lube but it's going to cost you at some point in accuracy until you do some serious lead Ming and carbon removal
 Remember I never said I wasn't familiar with it , but I did say I don't see the point

[Ranch 13]

 And a quick check on apps website says that using a load that is compressed 1/16 in cartridges is suggested
They'll also go on to explain that best results are from using bullets lubed with smokeless lube
Thaw part that really makes a person wonder why is the having to clean the cases immediately after shooting to keep the residue from attacking the brass. I experienced that part 20 years ago
 So it still comes down to other than the billowing clouds of fake smoke what's the point

[Abilene]

Hi Ranch.  While I do prefer black powder for a variety of reasons, I occasionally use APP for convenience.  But when you ask What's the point?  I guess I can think of a few.

1. You said "other than" the clouds of smoke - well, that right there is a pretty good reason.
2. People don't have to mess with special lubes or find bullets that hold enough lube. They can even use any of the coated bullets that are so popular now.  That is a big reason for many.
3. There is a little bit of boom, not as much as BP, but more than smokeless.
4. Cleanup is about the same as BP, but there seems to be less fouling in the bore.
5. Some could care less about historical accuracy, they just want to compete in a BP category, and APP is just easier. 

So, to paraphrase myself, the point is fun.  Just not as much fun as black.
I'll say one pet peeve is people saying they are shooting black powder when they are shooting a sub.  I say no, you may be shooting in a BP or Frontier Cartridge Category but you are not shooting BP. It's a small peeve. 

[Ranch 13]

Bullet selection is pretty easy, the current iteration of the Lyman bullets work well, as do the RCBS, and some of the Saeco's, if a person doesn't want to go the custom/semi custom route from Buffalo Arms, Brooks etc.
 Bullet lubes such as bullshop Nasa, SPG and their new tropical, and DGL all work well with either black or smokeless.
 Clean up is as simple as 3-4 breaths each down the muzzle and the breach, run a dry patch. Follow with a couple of wet patches, plain water works, but napa cutting oil and water mixed 1 n 10 works better. follow with a dry patch. Patch wet with a good solvent like Montana extremes Cowboy blend. with no signs of further lead mining needed , dry patch and oil patch. All in all done. Except for case cleaning
 Excessive fouling with real black is a sign of not enough powder.

[Doc Holloman]

There are a ton of smokeless powders that do what APP does only better, sans the fake smoke.
So my question has always been why use it in place of smokeless and if you want real gunsmoke, then go with black. 1,2,and 3 f all work quite well in the rifle cases.

My point is that I am trying to safely shoot my 1878 vintage trapdoor carbine  and looking for the path of least resistance.  I have been shooting it with coated 300gr bullets and 8.5 grins of Unique (no lube).  Have decided it would be safer to shoot something other than smokeless, but have no experience with BP.  It was pointed out that I continue to use the 300gr coated bullets I have on hand if I switched to APP, and would not have to invest in a lot of BP specific gear or supplies.   Seems pretty reasonable to me.