.44 Colt / .44 S&W American /.44 Henry Center Fire

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Doing research for my Cimarron Smith and Wesson No.3 American model, I had several realizations, based on research and anecdotal evidence. 

One the .44 American was basically a center fire .44 Henry, since S&W's initial offering was in .44 Henry, and the Army wanted the cartridge to be changed to center fire. 

Second, in the late 19th cntury, the ,44 S&W American and .44 Henry center Fire were used interchangeably in S&W Americans and the final 1866 version, the .44 Henry center Fire.

Third, .44 American would actually work in a 1860 .44 Colt conversion.  American Cartridge is only .01" smaller diameter than the .44 Colt, and the bullet of the American is only slightly more than .01' smaller than the .44  Colt bullet according to my measurements of the originals of both in my cartridge collections.  I tried .44 American's in my .44 Colt revolver, and they we just only the slightest bit looser than the .44 Colts.  I mean, like the thickness of a piece of printer paper looser!

Forth, Smith and Wesson's original designation was  just .44-100, and later called it .44 S&W.  At least one manufacturer produced the .44 American ammo under the label of ".44-100" saying it was also suitable for Colt's revolvers (I'm guessing 1860 Richards) and Winchester Rifles (1866 CF?)

My guess the .44 S&W would shoot reasonable from a Colt Conversion, the soft lead bullet obdurating into the .450" bore.  The American had a 218 grain bullet over 25 grains of powder, and the Colt was a 225 grain bullet over 26-27 grain black powder.  I would conjecture that in the vast stretches of the west, due the the proliferation of both Colt's conversions and S&W Americans (both in use with the Cavalry before 1874/5) S&W American ammo was used fairly often in Colt's conversions.  If a store keeper had limited ammo, a cartridge that could be used in both conversions and Americans (and later center fire 1866s) made sense.

 

[mtmarfield]

      Greetings!

   That's interesting conjecture! I've used .44 S&W 'American' Dies and Bullet Moulds to make .44LCF cartridges for my Frank Wesson Old Model Rifle. The rifle has a "fair" bore, and I might be tempted to continue my experiments. These might even work in an Evans Old Model Repeater.
   I've read nothing contemporary regarding .44RF to CF Conversions, and / or the popularity of them; they do turn up periodically in collections and auctions, and the ( alleged? ) Winchester 1866 Brazilian  Contract. I recall reading of M. Venturino putting together cartridges for Hank Williams Jr.'s 1866 CF Carbine; apparently it took .44 S&W Russian brass without modification. Vintage Gunsmith Conversion? We also have a photo on this site of what is believed to be an authentic 'Toolroom' Winchester 1866 SRC chambered for the .44 S&W Russian.... Has anyone made a survey of Chamber Dimensions for Henrys and Winchesters? We could include the S&W #3 American.
   

           M.T.M.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

.44 Henry RF and CF both have a case base of .440" + or -.  .44 Russian is .457" whereas .44 Smith and Wesson is .440" the same as  both Henry cartridges/. My original.44 Colts are just a hint over .450".

If I was a lawman back then carrying a 8" American for a problem solver for serious social work, with a short 1860 Conversion as a back-up (the way I do now at SASS matches), I'd probably just fill my cartridge belt with .44 S&W for both guns

[Tuolumne Lawman]

We live in a world of computers, micrometers, CNC machines and 3d metal printing, nano science, and disposable everything. We order from Amazon. We like exact, and want things to be correct. We talk about magnumitus, and MOA at 25 yards for pistols.

In the 1869, they lived in a world of pen and paper, rulers, files, chisels, and lathes, and use it until i can't be repaired anymore.  For them then, if it something still works or was close, that was good enough. They ordered through the town's general store. They used anything that they had at hand, as long as it worked most of the time.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I also found that the Army used 1863 and 1872 pattern holster for both Richards and Americans. The 183 was made to fit 1851 and 1860 Colts and NMA (1858) Remingtons, and did fit both American and Richards.  The 1872 was purpose built with those two in mind, since the Colt SAA 1873 wan't on the horizon yet, and was not common until 1874 ad 1875 with the troops, with many Americans and Richards still being used after that.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Common practice is to use .41 magnum brass (.435" case) for fabricating .44 Henry and 44 S&W (.440" case).  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. Senior moment.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I have to say I was astounded when I dropped the .44 S&W in the .44 Colt chamber, and it barely wiggled!  I have had .38 Specials that were that loose in older revolvers. It was tighter than the .41 magnum case by a lot.  That's what caused me to look up the specs of 44 RF/S&W to .41 Mag. That, along with the fact that lots of 1860 LCCs (Long Cylinder Conversions) were converted to .44 Henry, even though the 1860 bore was .450".  They seemed to shoot well enough that it was a common conversion for many years.

[mtmarfield]

      Greetings, TL!

   FUN information!It seems that the .44HRF obturated readily enough into the Colt Conversions rifling for it to bite. Colt's would likely not go through the expense of tightening the barrels tolerances for the .44HRF. Nonetheless, am I correct in the knowledge that Winchester tightened their late Improved Henry / 1866 to .44WCF dimensions ( used .44WCF barrel stock? ), or did I read that wrong?

               MTM

[Coffinmaker]

  MTM

It would not be surprising to find at the time frame of the Brazilian contract for 1866s, Winchester was using the same barrel stock used for the 1873 44WCF.  I don't know that for fact and haven't seen it from anyone who does.  After all, actual first person accounts from the 1890s is sparse indeed

I'd love to get my grubby grease stained hands on an original Central Fire 1866 again.  One that I could actually fool with.  The repatriated CF '66 I had occasion to fondle was "no, you can't fool with it" and the guy that owned it wasn't shooting it.  Bore was actually good but I also couldn't slug it for dimension.  Would that someone would wander around Brazil snapping up some of those '66s for repatriation.  So many possibilities.

[Abilene]

MTM

It would not be surprising to find at the time frame of the Brazilian contract for 1866s, Winchester was using the same barrel stock used for the 1873 44WCF.  I don't know that for fact and haven't seen it from anyone who does.  After all, actual first person accounts from the 1890s is sparse indeed

I'd love to get my grubby grease stained hands on an original Central Fire 1866 again.  One that I could actually fool with.  The repatriated CF '66 I had occasion to fondle was "no, you can't fool with it" and the guy that owned it wasn't shooting it.  Bore was actually good but I also couldn't slug it for dimension.  Would that someone would wander around Brazil snapping up some of those '66s for repatriation.  So many possibilities.

.
A few years back when I was in Cimarron's shot show booth, a Brazilian guy showed me pics of some of his guns, including a '66.  His English was poor and my Portuguese was worse, but I believe he said they are plentiful and cheap, but getting one out of there is nearly impossible, thus the lack of them showing up here. 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

This in really interesting.  All the literature says the .44 S&W American is a .440" case and the bulletin .432".  WELL I have a dozen original rounds of .44 S&W of assorted manufacturers, and ALL have bullet of .440" to .449", as wellas the case diameter of .440".  The rebated heel inside the case may be .432".  This means they would be a better performer than I original thought in .44 Colts.  In fact, I have several .44 Colt and .44 S&W that are the same diameter!

[Hair Trigger Jim]

Now I'm tempted to pull one of mine apart and measure the heel.  I still have about 30 of them left.

[mtmarfield]

      Greetings!

   Many Moons Ago, I used an RCBS .44 S&W American 3-Die Set, and an RCBS .44 American bullet Mould to make ".44Long CF" cartridges for my Frank Wesson Old Model single shot Rifle. I recall that the heel of the bullet was .419"/.420" diameter, and the bearing surface was .425"; another mould that I'd acquired from, I believe, OW Moulds, was about .435" in extremis. I do not recall the alloy, but it was probably wheelweight.
   The Ideal # 419180 Mould designed for the .44S&W American, strangely, wasn't a heeled bullet; it was the same diameter along its "bearing surface". This was noted by the author of an article chronicling the loading of BP .44 S&W American cartridges; he found that these bullets would more or less fall through the barrel. Why Ideal designed the bullet mould this way is, to me, paradoxical.

            M.T.Marfield
              10-08-24

[Galloway]

Why Ideal designed the bullet mould this way is, to me, paradoxical.

Maybe accuracy improves with fouling lol 

[nativeshootist]

Lately I've been seeing a lot more CF 66 carbines, makes me wonder if there was infrequent conversions made out in the west or other places when the 1866 was still in its heyday. Besides the Brazilian contract that's mentioned here. On Clarks Antiques there's a type 2 or 3 66 carbine with a CF conversion done to it. Forgotten weapons  on youtube also has a video on a fully nickle plated carbine that was converted. Lastly there's one on the winchester collectors forum that is also converted. I can see people wanting to do it and others not wanting to. Kinda like nowadays, why pay for a fancy trigger in a semi auto while the factory trigger works? converting one wasn't hard work, use an empty case in the chamber with the bolt closed to find the center and go from there. I understand that there are professional gunsmiths here, but as Tuolumne mentioned, close enough worked. if you go to youtube and watch The Cinnabar, he has several videos on 1866s rifles including a centerfire carbine that he rebarreled with a barrel from winchester barrels. he also has a chamber casting video for one. sorry for the long reply but i've just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I've been really into the 66 pattern rifles and this site helped that along.