New Spencer Owner 26031 with Range Report (Update 11/22/24)

[Apriestley]

After a year or more of looking for the right rifle, I met this Monday with a fellow N-SSA shooter to take possession of an original Spencer carbine. As a skirmisher I first and foremost wanted a good candidate as a shooter and, with the unavailability of so many niche reloading components since the pandemic, wanted to get a shooter-ready package with everything I needed to get started. With Mr. Tinny's mentorship and advice I ended up with this rifle which a previous owner and accomplished skirmisher had intended to make a competition carbine but passed before he could finish the project. It appears to me to be a M1860 that received some post-war updates but I'm sure the experts here will know for sure.

UPDATE 11/22/2024 - The high view count for this thread seems to indicate that search engine algorithms are directing traffic toward this thread, which is pretty cool. As such, I wanted to create a quick reference chart for loads tried in this rifle for readers not wanting to dig through everything for information:

RIFLE: M1860 Spencer Carbine circa 1864, refitted with 20" 1:36 twist rate .56-50 barrel by Springfield Armory postwar. Bore slugs .516
LOAD                                                50 Yard                        100 Yard
.520 Maynard bullet sized to .516              4"-5"                          no data
(unknown powder charge, came with rifle)    tests done prior to sight work

315 gn .515 Romano (30:1 alloy)                2"-3"                          4"-5"
35 gn Swiss FFFG (very smooth feeding)

350 gn Accurate 51-350 (30:1 alloy)            1.7" - 2.5"                    4"-5"
35 gn Swiss FFg

320 gn.512 Lyman 512-823 (pure lead)                  8" plus                        no data
32 gn Swiss

320 gn .512 Lyman 512-823 (pure lead)                  3-4"                          data pending
35 gn Schutzen FFFg (good chamber seal, positive ejection)

.515 Accurate 325 KT (30:1 alloy)              6"                            no data
35 gn GOEX FFFg

.515 Accurate 325 KT (pure lead)                2-2.5"                        data pending
35 gn GOEX FFFg


















My interest, first and foremost, was its performance and it did not disappoint. For one, the bore is about as near mint as you could ask for in a 19th century rifle. Action is super smooth and ejected even the Starline brass with authority (or as much authority as you can ask for in a Spencer). The package included 20 loaded rounds and test firing them at the range yielded pretty good results. Now, the previous owner never got around to adjusting the front sight, so while my grouping was good my point of aim was the bullseye at the lower target. Not going to break many pigeons without some adjustment.



So that leads me to one question, how best to raise the front sight. On other Spencers I see a pretty clear pin that could be driven out to replace the brass wedge. This one looks like more of a 'shelf' and I don't see an obvious pin in there.





Other than that, I'd appreciate any other information folks could provide about this rifle and if the serial number leads to any 'hits' that might clue in to its military issuance. Looking forward to getting this one back to the range and field.

Oh, and are any of those Spencer Society hats still available? 

[Apriestley]

I'll add, totally unmarked under the handguard

[El Supremo]

Congrat's, Adam:

First, determine if the Herrick replacement rear will fit, then wait on the post repl and its height.

Your group with what might be a mystery load seems very high if you aimed at lower bull. 
What distance were you shooting, and how high above your point of aim was the group's center?
The post blade insert will have to be raised to lower POI or rear notch lowered, but only after you determine an accurate load. 

Move the front sight in the opposite direction you want your group to move.
For blade height, you can super glue a thin brass or alum shim on the right side of the existing blade. 
That will move the group to the left. Super glue can be loosened with acetone. The existing blade might be just a squeeze fit into a slot with no crosspin. Knowing the target distance and group offset, the height of the front sight can be closely estimated.  I'll email you how to do the calculation. 

Try to learn the load details, powder, charge in grains, bullet mould info, bullet weight and SIZED OD and bullet lube.
Did previous owner provide loading dies?

Some skirmishers use light charges which produce more drop than "full" charges.
A widely used load is a 320gr to 350gr bullet in medium hard, 16BHn, Lyman NEW #2, alloy, and 35gr GOEX/Swiss.
This 1,100 fps muzzle velocity load, with no over powder wad, should be the starting one for setting the blade height at 50 yds. With it, the drop from 50 to 100 is approx. 7".
So, please work on the load for accuracy before the front sight.   
Any info on that upper block symbol, please?
Here for you. Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Apriestley]

Congrat's, Adam:

First, determine if the Herrick replacement rear will fit.
For now, wait on the post repl and its height.
Your initial group with what might be a mystery load seems very high if you aimed at lower bull. 
What distance were you shooting, and how high above your point of aim was the group's center?
The existing FRONT post will have to be raised to lower POI or rear notch lowered but only after you determine your accurate load. 
Move the front sight in the opposite direction you want your group to move.
For now you can super glue a thin brass or alum shim on the right side of the existing blade.  That will move the group to the left. Super glue can be loosened with acetone. The existing blade might be just a squeeze fit into a slot. With the distance and grouo offet info the height of the front sight can be closeky estimated.  I'll email you how to do the calculation. 
Try to learn the load details, powder, charge in grains, bullet lube and bullet. 
Overall, your ammo will have to shoot a decent 50 yard group. That's the starting point.  Sights after that. 
Here for you. Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

That group was shot at 50 yards benched. I shot another group offhand (not pictured) and pretty much mimicked it which was a good sign for my own part. With the exception of that first shot on a clean bore a pigeon would have covered them all.

I will pull apart a couple of the remaining loads to get weights and measurements.

[SgtMak]

Hey good looking spencer there...Im a fellow NSSA member who recently got an 1860 from a fellow member. Are you shooting starline 56-50 brass or cut down 50-70. The gentlemen I got my spencer from was shooting a accurate molds 53-375 bullet which I believe is .538. He was loading it in starline 56-50 brass. I took it to the range also on the bench and had mixed results. Need to play with the OAL for the old girl and get it to the right load. It's fun to shoot and hopefully have something set for spring nationals 2025. Good luck with your beautiful carbine there.

[El Supremo]

Nice, SgtMak:

Per the old joke: Please send pictures of boat. Tx.

Interesting bullet. 
Accurate Bullet Molds does fine work.
Tx. Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Arizona Trooper]

Since there is a Springfield cartouche (ESA), no serial number on the barrel and a mint bore, I suspect you have a carbine that was updated to 56-50 caliber. If that is the case, you will need a bullet in the 0.515" to 0.520" range, not the 56-56 0.540".

See you in Winchester. If you need a pickup for the Spencer match. I'm available.

[Apriestley]

So I've been working on the rifle quite a bit over the last few weeks and wanted update the threat with what's working for my rifle.

For starters, the rifle itself was kindly identified by Two Flints as having possibly served with the 4th KY Mounted Infantry being issued on the eve of Wilson's Raid. It was refurbished at Springfield Armory post war and fitted with a new, 20" 56-50 barrel with a 1:36 twist rate. The bore slugs at .516-.517.

After experimenting with a few loads, its turning out to be a real shooter. I fit a N-SSA legal rear peep sight with a .445" tall front sight post carved out of a penny, still experimenting on the exact height and cant for being sighted at 50 & 100 yards but getting close. So far I have just used Gorilla Glue epoxy to fit it on there which keeps it steady but does allow for it to be removed. Once I have the exact profile I want I will probably use some JB Weld compound to fix it more firmly. Unfortunately I do not see a good way of driving the front sight blade out without damaging it or the rifle, so hopefully this method will do for now.



I have also knocked the trigger weight down from perhaps 15 lbs on the outset to closer to 7.5 with the installation of a reproduction mainspring as well as two brass shims between the spring and mainspring set screw. While this got the trigger to a much nicer pull, it did take away the audible clicks of the half and full cock, which I'm not sure I like for safety reasons. I may remove one of these shims (or cut it in half) somewhere down the line.



As for the loads, I have tried a few different loads with the two winners being a 315 gn Romano profile bullet over 35 gn Swiss FFFg, and a 350 gn Accurate 51-350 bullet over 35 gn Swiss FFg. Both were quite close, with the Romano having a slight edge in feeding but the Accurate a slight edge in accuracy, at least at 50 yards, where I was getting about 1.75" groups consistently vs. 2.2" with the Romano. They were pretty much indistinguishable at 100 yards (shown below)

(Accurate)

(Romano, only shot two rounds for this group)

Once I have the front sight exactly how I want it I am quite confident in this rifle's ability to perform on the firing line.

[Apriestley]

While I'm waiting on a custom sized mold from Accurate I have been experimenting with bullets from a Lyman .512-823. Despite being undersized im actually pretty impressed with the results. First attempt tried the bullet over 32 & 35 gn by weight of Swiss 2F and Schutzen 3F. Bullets were made of pure soft lead. Neither of the 2F loads were worth pursuing but the 3F, especially the 35gn were quite good yielding 2" groups at 50 yards. Wondering if the soft projectile was bumping up to diameter I tried again with the same projectile cast from wheel weight lead. Accuracy was relatively similar with what seemed to be fewer fliers from the hard WW bullets.

35 grains of 3f by weight is absolutely the way to go not only because its more accurate but the rounds seal the chamber better and really get the extractor to engage making feeding MUCH smoother.

This should be good enough for N-SSA team competition and will be the load i take to Winchester for nationals in a few weeks. I hope to get there in time to shoot in individual competition but should at least be able to give it a test run in the team event.

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Adam:

Am curious about that Lyman .512-823 bullet.
Please post a photo of it. 
I hope it doesn't weight 823 grains. Haha.
Accurate emailed it has finished the bullet design with .516" as-cast OD and .730"OAL, so the mould should ship in Oct.
Good shooting.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Apriestley]

Thanks, Adam:

Am curious about that Lyman .512-823 bullet.
Please post a photo of it. 
I hope it doesn't weight 823 grains. Haha.
Accurate emailed it has finished the bullet design with .516" as-cast OD and .730"OAL, so the mould should ship in Oct.
Good shooting.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

its that one you sent back in August. I think the bullet weight is like 320 gn or so.

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Adam, for 320gr info:

The Accurate one is 325gr.
Its meplat is .180", which might be a cycling, primer contact safety issue, but that was the simplest way to achieve .730" OAL with better "BISON BULLET STABILITY CALCULATOR", 36" rifling stability past 150 yards.

The Accurate design will not be in its Catalog if unsafe. I've sent you Acc's drawing. Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Apriestley]

Well the carbines N-SSA debut didn't go quite as I hoped as Murphys Law came to pay a visit. About 10 rounds into the team match, and I was doing quite well, the gun stopped holding on full cock. The mainspring shim, which had held for who knows how many rounds at this point, came loose and prevented the main spring from properly engaging with the sear. This should have been a 30 second fix but of course I forgot to put my mainspring vice back in my range box. To make matters worse, our team was inspected for weapons safety right after mine quit working and because I couldn't prove I had a compliant trigger we got hit with a violation and penalty. Luckily one of the other guys had a backup Henry and I finished the event, but I had been stoked about getting the Spencer out there for months.

Maybe thats what i get for trying to take shortcuts with the trigger weight.

There's always next year.

[El Supremo]

Sorry to hear, Adam:
The shim has held in another for years of skirmishing. 
Maybe Superglue would help?
Another way is a larger headed mainspring screw.
I will send you a larger OD headed screw. Hugs.
Kevin Tinny

[Apriestley]

Back to the range this weekend to test out the finished "325KT" mold from Accurate Molds as designed by El Supremo. Tested bullets with a 30:1 alloy as well as pure lead, .315 as cast. The alloyed ones were all over the place but the lead bullets were the best shooting I've had out of this rifle yet with 35 gn of Goex FFFg. I think we have found our load. Groups were about 30% tighter than what I had before. I dont think I can much improve on this, may play around with powder charges plus or minus two grains. If I have time to cast tomorrow it make accompany me to the deer woods after Thanksgiving.
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/tdSCfnM9GMHx

[DeaconKC]

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[Apriestley]

I have added a reference chart for loads tested in this rifle to the first post. Based on the view count for this thread it looks like various search engines may be directing outside traffic here for people looking for information on Spencer shooting.