Trapdoor civilian availability

[LonesomePigeon]

This is just something I am curious about. When were the 1873 Trapdoor models in .45-70 legally available to common citizens?

[Trailrider]

Not sure about regulations, but it was Army policy to give guns, including Trapdoors, to citizens (civilians) who were in danger from hostiles or outlaws and were isolated. As far as sale to the general public, IIRC, the U of Minnesota had Trapdoors on sale for $5.00 apiece way into the 1950's!

[St. George]

When the Trapdoor was a first-line weapon - no.

Teamsters/civilians got surplus ACW weaponry and ammunition 'if' they were on-hand at the Fort - if not, they supplied their own from available civilian stock - the military wasn't in the business of supplying arms, so any weapons in civilian hands was on a case-by-case basis.

Back then, any Government-owned weapon found in civilian hands was suspect and was prosecutable without proof of legitimate ownership.

Yeah, I know about deserters stealing and selling their weapons, but they were still stolen in the eyes of Uncle Sam and could be conficated.

Once the Krag replaced the Trapdoor, Ordnance would recall them and inventory them, then supply the Militia and National Guard.

After that, they would enter into disposal.

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

In some cases, the army issued arms to their civilian employees...scouts, teamsters and packers.  I have done a lot of research on the subject, and, for example, in 1874, when Co. G, 3rd Cav, moved from Ft. D.A. Russell (now F.E. Warren AFB), to Sidney Barracks, NE, they had been issued M1873 Trapdoor carbines. But they also brought 5 Sharps carbines, cal. .50-70 with them. Why? Well, they had over 50,000 rounds of .50-70 ammo, and were only allowed 3 rds/man/month of .45-55 or .45-70 for target practice and/or foraging. In one instance, a .45-70 carbine was issued to a teamster who lost it and was charged around $15.

In another instance, there exists a Sharps carbine with the name of a young civilian teamster who was employed at Sidney carved in the stock. Had it still been government property, he wouldn't have done that, nor would he have autographed a stolen weapon. But if he had "lost" it with full knowledge of the post QM, and paid the value from his wages, they might have told him to put his name on the carbine to distinguish it from the other four still at the post! Unfortunately, all records of Arms and Ammunition in the Hands of the Troops stopped in June 1876, and the military didn't keep records of serial numbers. The young man wrote that he "lived with the enlisted men and carried a carbine on several expeditions against the hostile Sioux", when he applied for a pension in 1935. (Didn't get it...he was a civilian employee, not a soldier!) He probably was with the Big Horn & Yellowstone Expedition of 1876 under BG George Crook, but probably stayed with the wagon train where Sheridan, WY, now stands. But there were packers and teamsters with Crook at the Rosebud battle on 17 June 1876.  We'll never know...

[Arizona Trooper]

When the serial numbers below 50K were called in they were broken down and the 'unservicable' parts sold off. Hartley & Graham, Whitney and others wasted no time in putting them back together and selling 'genuine US service rifles' on the open market. This was 1879-80-ish and the Ordnance Dept. was hopping mad. This is probably the source of at least some of the mixed parts mongrel early model Trapdoors.

[Drydock]

And one must remember the earlier .50-70 rifles,  The 1866s in particular were well into the market by the mid 1870s in one form or another.  I suspect if one saw a Trapdoor in civilian hands prior to 1880, it was probably an 1866.

[LonesomePigeon]

So it looks like a regular citizen could have got a rebuilt mixed parts .45-70 Trapdoor in about 1880. A civilian employed by the government might possibly been able to use one earlier but probably not actually own one.

What about when the Krag replaced it? How soon after the Krag was in use did the government start selling Trapdoors? This is not necessarily an Old West question, I'm just kinda wondering when an average Joe might be using a cheap mil-surp Trapdoor .45-70 for hunting? Like when did they start showing up in the Sears catalog or similar publications? Was it after 1900?

[St. George]

Trapdoors and Krags stayed in the inventory as National Guard-issued weapons until WWI, when Federalization gave them the M1903 Springfield as well as the Model 1917, thus bringing all forces up to speed with modern weapons.

They both found their way into civilian hands as the result of NRA programs, as well as that of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship.

Krags were popular, because they fired a modern cartridge suitable for hunting, and many were sporterized.

Trapdoors, not so much - they were heavy, fired a heavy bullet and fired only one of them - the question would be 'why'?...  Folks back then didn't shoot 'quaint' and wax nostalgic like so many today- they shot for meat and wanted easily portable, fairly modern weapons for low cost.

Both could be found in the post-WWI catalogs of the larger dealers - Trapdoors could be gotten for about $2 at Sears, 'with' ammunition - farmers bought the hell out of them - shot the free ammunition - and relegated them to the barn.

Post-WWII, $15 (and less) would get you a 'lamp kit' with a rifle, sling and bayonet with scabbard, shade, wooden stand, cord and bulb so you could screw the stand to the butt after removing the buttplate and run the cord and bulb fitting to the muzzle through the breech, screw in the bulb and attach the shade and put it in to the reading corner - and that went on awhile - a couple of years back, I bought a .50-70 and .45-70 at an estate sale and the buttplates and screws were in the basement - they cleaned up 'very' nicely...

Scouts Out!

[Tascosa Joe]

Today I was rummaging thru some old magazines and I found a reprint copy of the N. Curry & Bro of San Francisco's 1884 catalog.  They had Trapdoors for sale.  A Shotgun, a sporterized rifle for $25, a 45-70 musket for $17, and a 50-70 musket for $15. A bit of new info.

[DeaconKC]

Thanks Joe!

[Tascosa Joe]

 

[LonesomePigeon]

Joe that's really cool.

[Hair Trigger Jim]

Interesting that, by 1884, a .45-70 was only $2 less than a .50-70.  And that trapdoor shotguns were a thing on the market by then.  I wonder if the shotguns were made from parts and/or .50-70s?

[Tascosa Joe]

The few I have seen in my life appeared to be made from standard trapdoor parts.