A Poll about your bullets

[Mako]

Okay, we've lost our source of the Big Lube Bullet Molds (Dick Dastardly), we've lost probably the best known source for cast Big Lube bullets (Mark Whyte).  Some of us have lost our secondary sources for bullets, so let's pool our resources and figure out how to keep us in lead.

Everyone may not be a disciple of the deep wide groove bullets like the Big Lube Styles.  Some are currently not available as molds.  Let's see what we can do to remedy the mold availability. I'm already working the Snake Bite Grease Wagon substitute (you'll like it).  It would also be great if we had someone who wanted to get into casting that could fill the void Mark left.

The next bullet for me is the .44 Mav Dutchman replacement, though I know the majority of y'all will want something like the PRS 250gr .45 or the 200gr .45.  If you can send me specifics on the dimensions of the PRS I would appreciate it.  I have some somewhere and can't find them, I don't shoot much .45 Colt.  I can post or send a sketch indicating the dimensions I need (actually for any of the bullets you would like again).

Pipe up about other bullets you want to see.  There are already mold replacements for the EPP-UG for the .44 Cap & Ball guns, there is also a replacement for the EPP-UG 36.  There is also a nice 130gr-135gr mold for .36 Navy Bullets (a big lube variant which works well).  There are also some .44 and .45 molds currently available I am evaluating (but not big lube).  I have contacted Accurate Molds, MP molds and Lee.  Tom at Accurate isn't an issue, but his groove depth may be unless I can get him to give us a bit deeper.  Lee acts like they are too busy to even talk unless we have a big group order.  The group orders over on CastBoolits.com have gone South since some problems during the pandemic.  We could get exact duplicates of the Bullets of the Big Lube style we are used to from Lee but as I said they act like it isn't important to them.  Their catalog has also shrunk a lot.  And Mihec over at MP molds is covered up as well.

So to get started vote above and then post what you have. Don't just say "I use a Lee .45 mold".  Tell us which mold by number or post a picture of the bullet if you don't know what the model number is.

Oh, and you can vote for as many of the lines as apply and change you vote later if you wish.  This is about gathering information...

One last thing, I have no financial interest or direct affiliation with any of the vendors I have been working or talking with.  My only interest is for anyone who wants to shoot Real Powder to have the best bullets available for that purpose.

~Mako

[Abilene]

Well, you didn't have enough options, but I picked two.  I have bought biglube .44 "toggle" bullets from Slim, and still have some left.  Plus a friend gave me 100 Mav's lubed with SBG.  When I run out of those, I can maybe get more Mav's from the friend.  He said his mold is worn and he was not happy when I told him Dick D was out of the business. 

I also bought some sort of 125gr bullet from Slim, not even sure if it was big lube.  But all my shooting is CAS and my longest barrel is 20", so I'm not a big needer of biglubes. 

I'm now buying BP-lubed bullets for my .38's and .44 Spcl/Russians from Missouri Bullet Co.  They are not big lube.  I had tried Desperado bullets before since their lube is supposed to be BP compatible but I did not have good luck with it in .45 and 32-20 so I relubed with my lube.

For years I just bought smokeless bullets and melted out the crayon lube for all calibers.  I relubed with an old Lyman 45 for rifle use (started with pan lubing, but too tedious), and used no lube at all in pistol rounds, just lubing with butter flavored Crisco over the first two rounds in the cylinder.

A guy on the SASS Wire named Dallas McBoomboom is supposed to be making some biglubes now.

[hellgate]

I cast and shoot the old Lyman 358311 158gr RN FB in .357 Mag cases. In order to use real gunpowder i need to put two thin discs of medium brood core beeswax on top of the powder before seating the bullet to prevent fouling out the barrel in my Rossi '92. I can shoot that load all day but it only gets about a 6" group at 50 yards. If I use 3F 777 I don't need the beeswax and can shoot all day and get 1.5-2" groups at 50 yds. I use a BP lube on all my bullets regardless of the powder used: 50/50 beeswax/deer tallow.

[Professor Marvel]

I ahve and cast in both the PRS 250gr .45 or the 200gr .45.
In an old thompson center .45 maxi mold
In an older lyman hollow base .454 colt mold.

Looking for one of those largish heavyish .38 molds Mako was talking about... the catalog is a tish confusing at the moment.

Not giving any of them up, you will have to ask whoever is the executor of my will when i finally go in 60 or 75 years....

Yhs
Prof marvel

[Mako]

I ahve and cast in both the PRS 250gr .45 or the 200gr .45.
In an old thompson center .45 maxi mold
In an older lyman hollow base .454 colt mold.

Looking for one of those largish heavyish .38 molds Mako was talking about... the catalog is a tish confusing at the moment.

Not giving any of them up, you will have to ask whoever is the executor of my will when i finally go in 60 or 75 years....

Yhs
Prof marvel

Perfesser,
Are you talking about the 130-135gr .36 C&B mold?

If so here it is:

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-135C

If you are talking about the 160gr Grease Wagon analog, Tom doesn't have it cataloged yet.  I'm still waiting on him to send me a link to approve the "design". Odd since I actually submitted the design, but that is the way he has done it in the past as well.

~Mako

[Professor Marvel]

Ah My Good Mako

That 169 grain monster is what I am after LOL ... It is so long I may have to be satisfied with a veeeeeery sloooooow muzzle vel lol....

Prf marvle

[Mako]

All:
Use the template below for reporting what you have and the Bullet design(s) you would like to see.

I already have good dimensions for the:

• .38 160 gr Snake Bite Grease Wagon 
• .44 200gr Mav Dutchman
• 36 EPP-UG 
• 44 EPP-UG (.45 cal)

Just send me the numbers per the assigned lettered designations,  "J" may not even exist on some bullets except exactly where the Crimp groove ends.  Some bullets have a stepped down diameter that would correspond to a "J" dimension beyond the groove.  Just send me what you have.  If there are any questions just ask me, don't be bashful.

~Mako

[Navy Six]

For loading big lube type bullets in my blackpowder cartridges I use these molds from Accurate Molds:
38-155-C for 38 Special
401-185-C for 38-40
428-215-C for 44-40
45-195-C used for 1860 Army conversions in 45 S&W and cut down 45 Colt cases
45-251-C for 45 Colt
Other than having a large lube groove there are arguments for selecting the three similar design molds(38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt). Some years back the late John Kort (AKA 44WCF) did extensive long range testing with the 44-40 black powder cartridge in a Uberti 1873 Winchester with a 24" barrel. To sum it up, with then available bullet designs, only Swiss proved useful at long range because either available bullets were not accurate at that range or didn't have enough lube capacity to keep fouling down in that 24" barrel. It is my understanding he designed 428-215-C and after much testing that bullet design was useful with most available black powders, not just Swiss. I seem to recall Mr. Kort testing that 428-215-C/Swiss powder out to 500 or 600 yards. Those results convinced me to obtain that mold which I was quite happy with. So it didn't take much persuasion for me to order similar designs from Accurate Molds, especially for my favorite, the 38-40. I have shot two day State Matches and not done anything more than a wipe down for the next day with all the above listed bullet molds, so in my opinion they all carry sufficient lube for any practical purpose.

[Mako]

Navy Six,
I'm assuming those are all Accurate Molds

36-155C   for   38-155-C for 38 Special
40-185C   for   401-185-C for 38-40
43-215C   for   428-215-C for 44-40
45-195-C used for 1860 Army conversions in 45 S&W and cut down 45 Colt cases
45-251-C for 45 Colt

Speaking of John's .44 bullet.  He never could get the Mav Dutchman to shoot accurately beyond cowboy ranges.  He thought the super deep groove caused that situation (instability and a weird center of gravity) ,yet he never was openly critical of the bullet.  But that was John, he was a gentleman  the last I heard from him was in either 2017 or 2018 I think, I've been meaning to ask someone who would know, when did he pass away? I was out of the country a lot from 2015 to 2023 and didn't always have access to the bandwidth necessary to keep up with things.

I used to send him old cartridges I ran across traveling.  He loved taking them apart and determining the powder type and the actual load weight (sometimes volume) especially in American cartridges.  I tell you more about what he determined the actual way BP was loaded in a later post. I still have messages from him on this forum and  I used to have them from the Open Range.  I also have emails from him when we were working on .44 Henry Flat Rimfire cartridges in 2013 and he was finishing up his work with the 430-215C you are using.  Some of the emails are from his other alias(S like w30WCF, or simply his John Kort jkort43@roadrunner.com email.  He was actually w44WCF on this and the Open Range Forums I see you forget to put the "w" in front like I always do.

Actually his bullet designs I know of at least three that Tom makes are what is making me consider whether or not we need the full .05" groove depth instead of the .03 we can get right now.  He was telling us years ago you would get left over lube in the grooves of recovered Mav Dutchman bullets and when I recovered some I saw the same thing, unused lube.

So are the catalog numbers you are showing indicating the as cast (dropped) diameter you ordered?  I'm curious, do you have an original Winchester '73?   I'm asking because I was wondering about the Ø.428 mold.  Have you ever paid much attention to the shape of his .44 bullet?  He has an elongated ogive made by dropping the diameter in front of the crimping groove,  He had been trying to get a secant ogive instead of a tangent but he was having trouble explaining the exact geometry to Tom.  Not that Tom couldn't understand but they were looking at it differently.  The '66s and '73s don't care but the nose on his bullet design feed better in '92s and Marlins.  Well he worked it out...

~Mako

[Navy Six]

Mako, yes, those molds are all Accurate molds designs. The 401-185-C and 428-215-C are how they are listed in the catalog but you can order them at different widths. I simply ordered mine at .401 and .428 diameter as that's what works for me across the board in Colt and Uberti revolvers and Uberti lever guns. I don't own an original 1873.
Boy do I remember the Open Range. That is where I was following Mr. Korts experiments with the 44-40. I hope you do explain how he was able to determine black powder type from dis-assembled shells. That sounds fascinating and it would be a shame if that type of knowledge was lost.
Of course I also remember you and John Corney--AKA John Boy--going back and forth at times. I had to smile because I knew John Boy well and shot Cowboy Matches with him for many years. Unfortunately John also passed away not quite two years ago I believe. John Boy also shot some with John Kort as he became interested in long range buffalo shoots. I think it was Ridgeway PA where this took place. John eventually shut down the Open Range but left it up and available for a few years.

[44caliberkid]

I cast my own bullets using Big Lube molds I got from Dick Dastardly. I have 38 Snakebite Greesewagon, Dick's 38-40 mold that is a scaled down Mav-Dutchman, a 44 Mav-Dutchman that I use with BP and smokeless, for 44 Russian, 44-40, 44 Special and 44 Magnum.  In 45 I have the short 45 bullet (190-200 grain?) and the big 255 grain bullet, and Dick's 45-70 bullet, 400 grains I think, without looking.  I bought almost every mold he made.
   Has Dick passed on or just out of the bullet mold business?

[Sedalia Dave]

Snakebite was kind enough to share his bullet design on the SASS Wire

[Mako]

Navy Six,
John (Kort) was of the opinion and I now agree with him that many commercially loaded black powder shells were not loaded the way some people insist that Real Powder "has to be loaded".  That is totally full cases, no air space and compression being a necessity.

By disassembling cartridges he could see just how much powder was actually in the case volume wise and also the weight of the charge.  He found that there was a lot of better powder than he expected.  The majority was well glazed and had been well dusted because even though it didn't still have the super glossy finished we find of some of the premium powders from Europe you could tell it had that finish at one time.  There was very little powder dust in the cases where there had been little degradation mainly from moist environments or just simple atmospheric humidity. He was convinced the ammunition companies loaded by weight based on multiple samples of the same shell from different time periods.  He might find some that were loosely packed probably caused by settling or even break down form handling for decades that had very similar weights to the same cartridge with little or no free space.

In talking with him he was suggesting that it was the total density of the powder that determined the potential energy of the powder.  Then the grain size which determines the surface area sets the burn rate.  There is a lot more to it but he noted the majority of the powders he found in pistol size cartridges was actually about 18 mesh instead of 16 (FFg) or 20 (FFFg).  Some of the powders were more dimensionally uniform in the three axis and others were "flatter'.  This is some of the things I meant when I wrote he was "identifying" the powder, it would probably be more correct to say classifying bay characteristics.

He even reloaded some of the old powder (I believe he wrote about some of the tests on Open Range) using modern cases and bullets to compare the velocities with modern powder.  He wasn't like the majority of Cowboy Shooters he had the same attitude as Col. Whelen that "Only accurate rifles are interesting."   For a while there it looked like he and John Boy were more interested in screening powder than shooting it, I don't know if you remember that.

There is a lot more, I need to re-read some old emails.  Below is the way you determine the density of a mixture like BP.  Black powder is a mixture not a compound which is one of the reasons it doesn't break down with time like nitro cellulose based powder.  Below is how you determine the total density of powder (using the "traditional" 15/10/75 ratio)

~Mako

[Mako]

Snakebite was kind enough to share his bullet design on the SASS Wire

Sedalia,
Thank you very much for the sketch.
Mav Dutchman also posted his design a long time ago, and Dick posted one of the Mav Dutchman which doesn't look at all like the mold he sold.

I already had that sketch from Snakebite.  It was one of the things that confused me when I started working on a replacement because I seen a partially dimensioned drawing that the  Lee Mold was made to and it is different.  If you have those Grease Wagon bullets from the Big Lube molds measure them, you will find several dimensions differ.  The biggest difference is the nose diameter which changes the profile of the Bullet and is noticeable and the crimp groove on the cast bullets is not as deep or large as the sketch he posted.

The Grease wagon groove geometry on the Lee Molds actually differ quite a bit from the .40, .44 and .45 Big Lube bullets.  Not just in depth but the side wall is not the inclusive 20° angle we see on the larger bullets.  That is good for us because Tom will make those angle but not the sharper angles of the bigger bullets.  So the .38 is an easy true to shape replacement (and the crimp groove is more like what Snakebite envisioned it).

Look at the actual bullet picture and the model for the Mold I am having Accurate make right now, we'll soon have a replacement.  See them below.

~Mako

[Mako]

I cast my own bullets using Big Lube molds I got from Dick Dastardly. I have 38 Snakebite Greesewagon, Dick's 38-40 mold that is a scaled down Mav-Dutchman, a 44 Mav-Dutchman that I use with BP and smokeless, for 44 Russian, 44-40, 44 Special and 44 Magnum.  In 45 I have the short 45 bullet (190-200 grain?) and the big 255 grain bullet, and Dick's 45-70 bullet, 400 grains I think, without looking.  I bought almost every mold he made.
   Has Dick passed on or just out of the bullet mold business?

Hey kid,
Since you have a .38-40 mold can you look at that template I posted and take some measurements for me?  The .45s too if you have time.

I think Dick Rhody is still kicking he just got out of the business.  I saw not that long ago where someone had either texted or corresponded with him late last year.

~Mako

[Sedalia Dave]

I have a SLIM 38 that I haven't gotten to use yet.

Accurate Molds modified one of their designs for my 56-50. Haven't gotten to use it yet.  One of the modifications was to maximize the available lube.

Not a Lubed bullet but I had this one made by Tom for my Ruger Old Army's. Did this because a .457 round ball is just barely big enough and occasionally a ball will move in the chamber. It is cut to have a max diameter of .460. This will make a better fit and should seat a little deeper into the chamber. The tapered sides should make it easy to load.

All three of the above are scheduled to be used in May. I'll have time by then to do some casting.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Mako,

First off let me tell you how much I appreciate all of your postings, between Yours and Hoof Hearted's I think I've read
every post about conversion revolvers before I did my Remington Conversion in .44 Colt (which I did against Hoof's advice).
However, I'v been loading with Black MZ so my input really doesn't fit your survey.
I've been loading the LEE 450-200-1R Black Powder Conical with a swaged heel without any lube, they shoot well for me.

Thanks again for all your posted information, AntiqueSledMan.

[Mako]

Sedalia,
Thank you!

How does that stumpy little thing shoot?  I saw that in the catalog and wondered who had ordered that.

I expect it does fine at Cowboy ranges, have you ever shot it beyond 20 yards for accuracy?

~Mako

[Sedalia Dave]

Sedalia,
Thank you!

How does that stumpy little thing shoot?  I saw that in the catalog and wondered who had ordered that.

I expect it does fine at Cowboy ranges, have you ever shot it beyond 20 yards for accuracy?

~Mako

Don't know yet. I'm hoping to get a few hundred cast in time for the SW regional.  I'll be sure to post an review.

[Mako]

Hello Mako,

I did my Remington Conversion in .44 Colt (which I did against Hoof's advice).

However, I'v been loading with Black MZ so my input really doesn't fit your survey.

Hey Sled Man,  (buckboards? those would be truly antique) 

Haa!  I'm curious as to what Gary recommended instead of the .44 Colt.  Was he trying to dissuade you because of the trouble it takes to load and manage .44 Colt Heeled bullets?  They are a lot of work.  I believe he used to sell a kit for the Lee factory crimp die that helped a bit, because the guy that had been selling them (or may have originated the concept) was out of business. Did you get one of those shell holder extensions?

I may do a couple of true conversions some day and I will have to make a bullet just for those.  I actually had a design and believe I posted it on here somewhere over ten years ago.  I wanted a lot more lube than the bullets he was using.  That brings back memories of w44WCF  (John Kort) he was tacking down info and collecting all of the .44 Henry cartridges (flat or otherwise) he could get to suss out the nature of the performance and the lube.  They mostly had dinky little grooves (exposed to the world!) for lube to sit in.  I think his final opinion was the originals were either Bees Wax or Paraffin wax (with something added).  Most of the cartridges we found were devoid of any lube.  We needed to find them in the original boxes, or loaded into a Henry or '66 magazine for a hundred year. 

I had a guy in Brazil trying to locate some produced down there that weren't all dried up.  A partial box of .44 Rmfire was selling for well over $1,000 ten years ago.  Individual rounds as I wrote were always devoid of any lube.  I remember John had bought a fuil box of American made ammo and it cost him just short of $2,000.  He was extremely disappointed because he thinks it may have been stored in a glove compartment.  All of the lube had gone away.  I asked him if it had pooled t the box bottom and he told me it was all over the interior and he couldn't decide if it was a wax coating on the inside of the cardboard or residue from the bullet lube.  I encouraged him to sell them individually on line to collectors to recoup his "investment".

Below are some original .44 Colt cartridges, note they are heeled bullets but most don't even have lubrication grooves.  There is also a .44 Colt Style I had doodled with, trying to get more lube and lube protected from loss.  I was going to machine some bullets and see how the lube on the rebated heel worked (if at all).

~Mako