It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.

[Crow Choker]

All right CAD drawings and descriptive this and that----Haven't been able to read everything thoroughly but will tomorrow morning. Welcome back Mako, I've been singing praises of your old post that's in the Dark Arts about nipples and caps relationship's alot, esp on another forum where alot of the shooters of cap revolvers needed the education. Great thread!!!!! Reference your thread title, I've been thinking WOW, a month has gone by on the Darkside without any posting, time to repost another thread "It's Pretty Dead Here"! Glad you beat me to it. FWIW, as far as me and my 'old timey' guns, they still get good ol black powder and Remington #10 caps. Stocked up when the getting was good and price was good. CC

[DeaconKC]

Hiya Mako, nope not Kansas City, it's my initials [Kevin Collier].
As to your observations, I have laid in some APP and am planning on using it with my usual 200 grain RNFP [coated] from Bustin' Head Lead. It shoots well in all 6 of my .45 guns under a charge of 7.5 grains of Unique, so hopefully it will behave with the APP.
I do have some actual BP which is being hoarded for my actual pre 1900 Smith & Wessons, to protect them.
Gonna set up a new turret on my Dillon 550 for the APP just cause I don't want to mess with the other that runs perfectly for my smokeless .45 loads.

[Mako]

Deacon,
You can shoot BP lubed bullets with our lower velocity pistol loads with "smokiless powder" and they do fine.  Especially if you have a Big Lube bullet or a larger groove variety.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure who sells BP lubed bullets anymore.   I know people use the Desperado Cowboy Bullets

https://cowboybullets.com/45-cal-200-grain_p_24.html

I know one pardner buys then "unlubed" and then pan lubes them.   Others have told me they work fine with BP with the lube they come with.  I have no experience with them.

On your Dillon you can get a quick change adapter for your powder measure and just switch it.  I wouldn't run real powder through a Dillon Measure but I have a Brass Hornady Black Powder Lock-N-Load measure on my Dillon 650 with a quick change to allow me to go between my .44 caliber and .38 caliber heads.  I posted a picture below.  I load all of my BP pistol and rifle loads on a Dillon XL-650 Progressive and my BP shoptshells on a MEC 600 Jr MkV (but I hand drop the powder that is why I use the 600 instead of a progressive shotshell press)

I just looked for a picture of the Black Powder measure and I think they may have discontinued them!  This is ridiculous I leave home for two years and the world falls apart!

It doesn't show up very well and that is a smokeless powder Lock-N-Load on the left but I posted it to show the mechanism that makes it "automatic" and to show that die on the bottom.  I have two of those dies and two mouth expanders I just loosen a screw for the arm, unhook the spring and move the measure.

Well look at the Lee Through Powder Die for your set up.  You could hand hold a measure above it ( I have done that with an RCBS "Little Dandy" measure, I looked and whew!!! they still make those and not priced bad, but you have to buy individual rotors, I have a box full)  Just dip your Real BP.  I'm not sure what to tell you about a substitute in a mechanical measure.  Someone else chime in here.  What does APP say about that?

You should be able to use the exact same set up on all of your dies on you RL550 (except your charging station), your just changing powders .  Yo can remove your measure (simple to do and leave the screw in portion in) and stick a funnel on thee and drop your charge of APP.  I can't remember it's been 20 years since I had a 550, does the charging station also bell the case mouth?  Hmmm, I'll bet someone makes an accessory to allow you to use that expanding die and still drop through a charge.  I'll look (you have enough to worry about).  Actually don't worry it is easier than it sounds.

~Mako

[DeaconKC]

Yup Mako, I have used the Lee Powder Through dies on my 550 for years with Lee Powder Pro with the discs. And looks like they will work with APP. And yup, I forgot to mention thanks for reminding folks of the joys of Pyrodex [I hate that stuff]. We have some carbide .45 Colt dies coming in from an Estate that I am grabbing, it's worth the dollars just to keep things simple, as I already have the Lee hopper and a toolhead standing by.

[Froogal]

For what it's worth, I cast all of my bullets for .38 special, .45 Colt, and 44-40. I lube all of them with SPG lube, and it works just fine for both smokeless and black powder.

[Mako]

For what it's worth, I cast all of my bullets for .38 special, .45 Colt, and 44-40. I lube all of them with SPG lube, and it works just fine for both smokeless and black powder.

Froogal,
I think I'm going to be soon "polling" or asking everyone about Mold designs we need to have resurrected for BP bullets.  I already have one in the works with Accurate Molds for the .38, and  I'm working on him (Tom) about deeper grooves for .38-40s (Ø.40) through .45s.  So far no luck on grooves deeper than .03", I may have to offer paying for tooling to allow him to extend .02" deeper.  I am hoping if we get enough interest (sales for him) that he would either amortize to cost and only charge a very limited NRE or credit me back at some point with Molds in the future.

In the meantime what molds are you currently casting with and if they aren't specifically bullets designed for Gun Powder are you satisfied with the amount of lube you can get into the grooves?

~Mako

[Coffinmaker]

AH HA 

So it's MAKO's fault!!  I posted this elsewhere also, forgot where, but:  Some Lustrum back I was beset with Blind, Deaf and Dumb spotters at CAS matches.  Seems they were collectively unable to tell when .36 Ball hit a steel target.  Seems they couldn't see the hit nor hear the impact.  Since I shoot a snazzy pair of Capt. Schaffer '51 replicants in .36, was some irritating.  Went looking for a .36 solution.  Turns the solution was the EPP UG - 36.  I helped finance the acquisition of the mold and bought the first several thousand examples.  NIRVANA indeed.  Turns out, the bullet can be blamed on MAKO (Huzzah) and Dirty Dick Dastardly!!  The other neat thing about the APP UG - 36, carries a boat load of lube for shooting Gun Powder yes it does.

The EPP UG - 36 drops at about 90Gr "as-cast" and the result is a nice manly 38ish KLANG on target also with a visible lead splash, and super accurate.  Unfortunately, my "go-to" bullet guy has retired.  Glad I originally sourced a pile.

Now for those Doubting Thomases, I are the Poster Kid for that funny stuff made from recycled orange peels.  APP.  Yep, that stuff.  That weird 20th Century Substitute for real Gun Powder.  It works a TREAT!!  Ok, it doesn't produce the "flash" of Gun Powder, nor does it smell the same as Gun Powder.  Butt, and However, NO LUBE required.  None.  Nix.  Nada.  ZERO.  Makes its own lube and the fouling is NOT cumulative.  Removes the fouling of the previous round each time it's fired and is easy clean up. (SO THERE Perfesser).  So I can, without reservation, suggest MAKO give the stuff a try.  Oh, Three F will meter thru a DILLON, Two F will not.  And also, APP works quite well for those new fangled self contained suppository thingies too.  Burma Shave   

[Navy Six]

Mako I just typed this reply but somehow it disappeared. Sorry if it shows up twice. Anyway, thank you for your response and I'll try to answer your questions/comments.
* I have no problems filling out the mold. I'm using pure lead--well, from an X-ray lab-- that particular batch I melted, fluxed and cleaned and poured into ingots before doing it again during the casting session. I run the pot at about 850* I am also pretty OCD and any flaws get rejected for re-melt.
* So far I've never seen any forward movement of the bullet during recoil. When I first experimented with 38-135-C I checked each round by examining the cylinder face after one round was fired. I stopped doing that when I detected nothing amiss. After several years of Match use I've never had a problem.
*The cylinder chambers don't appear to have a pronounced step. I just ran a scribe lightly down a bunch of Uberti chambers--circa 2010 and later although two were dated 1999-- and the cylinder walls were smooth. I got my measurements using pin gauges. Most were pretty consistent at .372(one .373) at chamber mouth. The bottom of all chambers took a .366 pin but not a .367.
*I considered chamber reaming in the past but I would feel compelled to do it to all of them to keep things consistent. My problem is cap & ball revolvers (especially Navies not sure how many)seem to grow around here. After the .36s were done I would have to start on the .44s. Since I do have extra cylinders in both calibers for Uberti Navies and Armies I guess having one pair each would be a good idea.
* As far as the powder charge of 19 grs Swiss, they were weighed charges on an electronic scale. When using paper cartridges I back off to 18 grs, again weighed to account for the paper. At first I thought this was too much powder as seating of 38-135-C was a little difficult. That was when using a straight .375 sizing die. When I used a .370 die on the bottom driving band seating was much easier and deeper. Because I like doing these things I also tried just "kissing" the bottom band with a .363 die after the other two operations were done. I actually like this the best so I guess I'm creating my own tapered heel bullet. I don't consider this too much work as the bullet now seats easily and is still accurate and as stated, knocks down any targets easily. I've even tried it at 75 yards on the so called "Hickok" shot and can usually get 3 or 4 out of six on a steel plate. But after reflection I am curious just how far my loads seat below the chamber mouth and will load one up and measure.

[Froogal]

Froogal,
I think I'm going to be soon "polling" or asking everyone about Mold designs we need to have resurrected for BP bullets.  I already have one in the works with Accurate Molds for the .38, and  I'm working on him (Tom) about deeper grooves for .38-40s (Ø.40) through .45s.  So far no luck on grooves deeper than .03", I may have to offer paying for tooling to allow him to extend .02" deeper.  I am hoping if we get enough interest (sales for him) that he would either amortize to cost and only charge a very limited NRE or credit me back at some point with Molds in the future.

In the meantime what molds are you currently casting with and if they aren't specifically bullets designed for Gun Powder are you satisfied with the amount of lube you can get into the grooves?

~Mako

At this point, ALL of my molds are the LEE 2 cavity. Nothing special about any of them, and other than .45 Colt with black powder in my rifle, I have NO trouble with fouling or leading. (To be honest, I have not yet shot any of my 44-40 loads).

[Mako]

Froogal,
Thanks!

Which molds specifically, I'm trying to determine what people are using?  What I really care about is groove size, how much lube can the bullet hold?

Also what kind of lube do you use?

I'm not searching for a bullets or lube, I know what works for me, I am trying to figure as a whole what everybody else uses because the sources for true Black Powder Bullets is drying up.

~Mako

[Froogal]

Froogal,
Thanks!

Which molds specifically, I'm trying to determine what people are using?  What I really care about is groove size, how much lube can the bullet hold?

Also what kind of lube do you use?

I'm not searching for a bullets or lube, I know what works for me, I am trying to figure as a whole what everybody else uses because the sources for true Black Powder Bullets is drying up.

~Mako

I will take an inventory of my molds and get back to you. I am using SPG lube and an RCBS lube/sizer.

[Navy Six]

OK Mako, I just had to measure how far the 38-135-C seated over a weighed charge of 19 grs 3F Swiss in a Uberti Navy 36 cylinder. It came out to .053 below the cylinder mouth. Just to clarify, I used Dick Rhody's Tower of Power to seat it initially like I do the night before a Cowboy Shoot. The rest of the Match I load paper cartridges with 17/18 grs 3F Swiss for convenience at the loading table. The paper carts are created without a projectile (just a paper "tube")as I can then use whatever projectile the job calls for. Before I started sizing each bullet as previously describe I was not able to utilize as much powder, so will continue my sizing routine. Either way, I've never had a problem with bullet creep and certainly no problem with knock down targets at the two Clubs I shoot at. So if you designed 38-135-C I owe you a bit of thanks and Tom for making it available.
BTW, I can't remember if I answered you question about the heel size. I left it at .357.

[Froogal]

I will take an inventory of my molds and get back to you. I am using SPG lube and an RCBS lube/sizer.

OKAY! Here are the molds that I am using. All of them are LEE 2 cavity.

429-200 RF   2 lube grooves.  ( haven't fired any of these yet)

452-200 RF. (standard for my .45 Colt)

452-228 1R  2 lube grooves. (haven't fired any of these yet)

358-125 RF

358-158 RF

[Mako]

OK Mako, I just had to measure how far the 38-135-C seated over a weighed charge of 19 grs 3F Swiss in a Uberti Navy 36 cylinder. It came out to .053 below the cylinder mouth. Just to clarify, I used Dick Rhody's Tower of Power to seat it initially like I do the night before a Cowboy Shoot. The rest of the Match I load paper cartridges with 17/18 grs 3F Swiss for convenience at the loading table. The paper carts are created without a projectile (just a paper "tube")as I can then use whatever projectile the job calls for. Before I started sizing each bullet as previously describe I was not able to utilize as much powder, so will continue my sizing routine. Either way, I've never had a problem with bullet creep and certainly no problem with knock down targets at the two Clubs I shoot at. So if you designed 38-135-C I owe you a bit of thanks and Tom for making it available.
BTW, I can't remember if I answered you question about the heel size. I left it at .357.

Thanks!
It makes sense that you were using an off pistol loader, otherwise that would be a heavy press on that 1851 bullet seater. The "dragoon/and 1851 style" lever doesn't have the leverage the "creeping" lever the 1860 and 1861 (plus some smaller frame variants) do. 

I've seen bent 1851 levers.  I rarely use the onboard bullet seater, I have a different style loader than Dick's but I get consistent seating and more importantly I get to inspect and remove any debris after every stage since I remove the cylinders.  Abilene can attest to the fact I have rarely had issues during a match, if I do they are always cap pieces that have dropped into the hammer area which I can clear.  I haven't gone to Manhattan Conversions or even the cap pins in all of these years but I have tried filling up the notch on the hammer and that does help.

I can load faster and more safely with the loader because people (usually new people observing) sometimes want to talk to me and watch while I charge the cylinders.  For me it's easier to get distracted when trying to hold the revolver, control the muzzle and keep track of everything while loading (even with a stand I tried).  With the Loader I can stop at literally any point and immediately get back to where I was because you can see exactly what has been put in the chambers.  I use Bees Wax/Mutton Tallow wads over powder for balls and you have it even easier with only having to track power and bullets.

However I have had periods where I was trying to come up with a better way of making sure I capped the correct chambers without looking down the front of the pistol at the loading table. I tried removing one cone from each cylinder so I wouldn't put a cap on a chamber without a charge (ask me why... I'll bet you already know)  Then I charged the one without a cone once and that went bust, plus I had power dribbling out the threaded hole.  Sometimes you can be "too smart" for your own good.  So I just went back to being careful and being more disciplined.  I use a white metal marker "crayon" now and mark the cone on the empty chamber each time before I reassemble the pistol and that works well and allows me to rotate through all 6 (unless we have 5 stages) chambers per match.

~Mako

[Coffinmaker]

AH HA 

Gentelmen (using the term loosely of course  )  Just a little tid bit.  I also load "off the gun" with DD's Tower of Power.  I have acquired a supply of little bright ORANGE or RED plastic like thread protectors.  I slice them to make little rings to put over the nipple for the chamber I wish to skip for CAS play.  Then when loading, I place a ball over that chamber whilst charging, then move that ball for seating.  Then after re-assembly mucho easier to see the "empty" to rest the hammer.  I only remove the little rings for cleaning the Cylinder.  I also like the advantage of being able to wipe the cylinder face and barrel breach after each stage.  I have also equipped my Tower of Power with a travel stop so the Ball/Bullet seats to exactly the same depth EVERY time.  SHAZAM!!

[Coffinmaker]

Memory of a Gnat 

I also forgot to include, when I still had my Shingle out, one of my specialties was to equip My Cap Guns and my Customer's Cap Guns with a "Cap Rake" or "Pin" as MAKO calls them.  I have always felt for ultimate reliability (I shoot Gunfighter) a mechanical device to prevent caps/fragments from entering the hammer channel was necessary.  A "Cap Rake" works a TREAT you betcha.  Burma Shave

[Mako]

I shoot Gunfighter too, always have. Self promoting Frontier Gunfighter #1.  At least now you and I can technically be classified as Frontier Cartridge Gunfighters even wth loose powder pistols, no longer do we have to have our names soiled by mingling them with those fancy dud wearing bunny phart shooting smokiless .38 cartridge shooters.  I still always sign in at matches as Frontier Gunfighter for the class.  It used to be before they made the GFC class the only time I was legitimate was at the State BP cowboy matches, but actually shooting against Frontier cartridge Gunfighters like I do now.

Oh wait...the Perfesser revealed you also admit to shooting bunny phart loads.  But I guess they still have that sulfur smell and do make a whole lot more noise, so okay...

I also have stops for my loader, not for accuracy, but to make sure I really have the projectile seated firmly. And I have to feel that slight "crunch".

Don't you shoot Piettas?

~Mako

[Navy Six]

Boy Mako, you are really trying to get me started. Anyway concerning which chambers to load--I like using white hair curling paper for my paper cartridges and as mentioned I load them without a projectile. So, when I drop one in a chamber just slightly below flush it is looking back at me with that bright white paper. No way I can mistake which chambers to load a projectile in even if for some reason(too often) you are distracted at the loading table.
With those darn cap fragments and Open top Colts-- right now I'm working on a long term project with mainspring strength. I have a few 51/60/61's that still do that occasionally after Slix-Shot nipples, Rem. # 10 caps, polished internals, polished hammer faces, corrected timing and arbor correction. These also have the current Uberti light springs or similar weight Wolf. When I installed a pair of 1999 era Uberti  heavier mainspring ( standard Cattleman) on  a pair of squareback Navies, the cap problems have stopped, at least for the last 300 rounds. These springs are not that much heavier, certainly not stopping me from cocking with one hand. Since I blame hotter caps and light mainsprings for a lot of cap problems, I will not install a cap rake/Manhattan device--yet. I don't like chopping up the guns when the simple installation of another mainspring will correct most of the problems(of course after each gun receives the above attention) . So my intention is determine what weight spring is the lightest necessary for general use without sacrificing reliability. Of course I understand 100% reliability may not be possible with a Colt, but I have reports of cap rakes failing at times too.

[Mako]

Navy Six,
The light mainsprings will kill your reliability.  You get hammer bounce from the back pressure.  Standard cones are the worst. I use Tresso cones, but the Slix will probably minimize it as well or perhaps better.  I never liked the way the cross holes "explode" the caps.  The Tressos are Aluminum Bronze (tough and corrosion free) and have a very small flash hole which minimizes blow back through the cone when the hammer is holding the cap in place.  I wrote something about that quite a bit back.

I blew it a few years ago, I had access to a micro laser welder and I could have welded up all of the faces on all of my Colt's pattern revolver faces.  I don't know why I didn't do it. I don't want a non precision welder to do the face and I'm not at the level I need to do a fine TIG weld.  I need someone who does work like welding up and repairing gates and vents on plastic injection molds.  Those guys are so good they don't even upset the color on things like hammers.

Laser welders have gotten more common now, the one we had was to weld Ø.015 wire in place where it exited a Ø.016 hole drilled through a .Ø.04 stainless steel ball.  A true micro welder.  I have a fabricator now who is buying a Laser for sheet metal work, I actually talked to him just a couple of weeks ago about trying it after he gets some experience with the machine.  I have one spare hammer I'm going to let him try first.  I will still have to mill or surface grind the face after welding.

I actually have heavier than normal mainsprings in my match guns.  Harder to cock though.  But they still don't stop the cap sucking you sometimes get when cocking.

~Mako

[Mako]

Sure is a lot more conversation in this forum now.  I was tired of talking to the voices in my head, they kept winning the arguments...

~Mako