Sales of percussion conversions?

[Coffinmaker]

Thanks Prof M 

That takes us back to what I thought I knew from my sordid past.  Same same.  You cut a Loading Channel in a Percussion Revolver = You have manufactured a firearm.  A "PMF" if you will.  If you remove the Cartridge Cylinder, and ALL the adjacent "Parts" the frame IS the firearm, just as the lower to a 1911 is a firearm.  What effect the Serial Number on the Frame from original manufacture??  Who Knows??  As I said before, I was unable to get a definitive answer.  When BATFE is unsure or confused, their "knee jerk" response is to prosecute and let the court figure it out.

So I return to my long held belief.  You cut a Cartridge Loading Channel in a Percussion Revolver and you have Manufactured a Firearm.  Unless you jump thru ALL the BATFE hoops, it's yours forever.  You cannot give it away, you cannot bequeath it.  It can only be held by the individual who originally manufactured it. That frame MUST be destroyed. 

Poking BATFE with a stick is a Fools Erand.  Believe It.

[Graveyard Jack]

Sorry but cutting the loading port does not create a firearm. No way, no how. It does not permanently make it a cartridge gun. You can cut the loading port and go right back to shooting the percussion cylinder. One does not preclude the other.

Installing the cartridge cylinder is what creates a firearm. You can do that willy nilly as an individual.

The cartridge conversion can be sold as a cartridge conversion as long as it's treated as a modern firearm. They already have a serial number. No need to involve the ATF. It's not an illegally manufactured firearm.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Graveyard,

Your reasoned and logical explanation of the conversion situation is crystal clear. Thus it would fall on deaf ears at the BATF. I agree with you on all points, but fear that it would provide no protection when the G Men came calling.

Rev. Chase

[Graveyard Jack]

Howdy Graveyard,

Your reasoned and logical explanation of the conversion situation is crystal clear. Thus it would fall on deaf ears at the BATF. I agree with you on all points, but fear that it would provide no protection when the G Men came calling.

Rev. Chase

How do you figure? This is exactly how the gunsmiths who build these guns treat them.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Graveyard,

One must remember that what makes sense seems to have no relevance to the BATF. Once they define what they think is "manufacturing a gun", they use that rather than any reasonable definition. Thus just the slight modification of a percussion recoil shield to them is a big deal.

I'd rather they used your approach; however, they are rarely deterred by logic, preferring to wallow in their own bureaucratic double speak to confound free thinking citizens.

Rev. Chase

[Graveyard Jack]

One must remember that what makes sense seems to have no relevance to the BATF. Once they define what they think is "manufacturing a gun", they use that rather than any reasonable definition. Thus just the slight modification of a percussion recoil shield to them is a big deal.

Like I said, that is simply not true. If it is, please provide a citation.

You boys must be doing a lot of reloading on the clock to bother with cutting a loading channel.

Easier to just leave them stock and pop empty cases out at the unloading table after some basic disassembly of the cylinder, regardless whether Colt or a Remington.

Never need to fear the BATFE bite.

Kinda hard for the ejector to work without cutting a loading port and if I had to take the thing apart to reload it, I wouldn't bother. No need to fear the ATF whatsoever. You know how many of these things Kirst sells???

[Major 2]

That is the point so far, I've seen nothing in Black & White by the ATF, and I have looked.

I would not care to test it, nor would I use one's thoughts or interpolation as to what is implied.

as the man said, "Your Call, we are a lighthouse!"

[Graveyard Jack]

That is the point so far, I've seen nothing in Black & White by the ATF, and I have looked.

I would not care to test it, nor would I use one's thoughts or interpolation as to what is implied.

I'm fairly certain that guy in Texas has been round and round with the ATF about this. Else he'd probably do things differently.

IMHO, people take the idea of "modifying the frame to accept cartridges" to mean more than it does in this context. Yes, it's permanent but that modification alone does not make it a cartridge gun. It still functions as a percussion gun. Taking their words and the statute at face value, I'm comfortable with my assessment.

[Major 2]

OK ! 

[Coffinmaker]

Graveyard Jack 

I can almost agree with you.  "ALMOST"  But you're wrong.  When you Permanently Alter a Percussion Frame to accept cartridges you have Manufactured a firearm.  It is now and has been perfectly legal for you to do so.  No argument.  Taking the Conversion cylinder out does not change the fact that the frame has been permanently altered for cartridges.

There have only been about four guys that I know of who commercially built conversions.  Jay Strite - Licensed.  Kenny Howell - Licensed.  Robert Millington - Licensed.  Gary Barnes (The guy in Texas) - I don't know.

BATFE classification of a conversion Cylinder is a "Black Powder Part" no harm no foul.  This includes the Howell Old West Conversion two piece cylinders, the Howell style cylinders from Taylors and Co., and Kirst Konverters.  Legal to manufacture, legal to sell (Check your State Regulations).  What you do with it after you get it is on your own hook.  the manufacturer has NO responsibility for what you do with your "Part."  If the frame isn't altered and you use a Howell type cylinder, it is only a firearm with the cylinder in the frame.  Put the Percussion cylinder back in, Percussion gun and BATFE classifies it as non-firearm.  It makes no difference what so ever how many Konverters Kirst has sold.  It falls on WHAT YOU DO WITH IT.

Until YOU can show a written determination from BATFE, or a court case that has been won, your "No Way No How" is just so much hot air.  You are welcome to your opinion.  It is, after all, Yours.  I cannot disagree with your logic.  Except, your logic has ZERO to dow with the way BATFE applies their regulations.

If you wish to emulate The Man From Lamancha(sp) and tilt at windmills, go for it. I held my FFL for 25 years before I retired.  I NEVER built conversions for other than myself.  Poking BATFE with a stick is A FOOLS ERRAND no mater how wright you think you are.  BATFE has the option to declare your conversion a PMF unless the maker registered it and transferred it on the proper forms.

Your Move.  We Are a Lighthouse.   

[Graveyard Jack]

Graveyard Jack 

I can almost agree with you.  "ALMOST"  But you're wrong.  When you Permanently Alter a Percussion Frame to accept cartridges you have Manufactured a firearm.

According to whom?

Think about it, permanent or not, cutting the loading port does not make it a cartridge firearm. It's still a percussion gun and will function as a percussion gun, albeit with a large capping port. Physically installing the cylinder is what makes it a cartridge firearm and that is not permanent. YOU do that as an individual, which is perfectly legal, unless you're doing it as a money making endeavor.

The license is irrelevant in this context. If cutting the loading port made it a modern firearm, they wouldn't be able to send it directly back to you AS a percussion gun. It would have to be transferred through an FFL. If it's a Howell or a Millington and the conversion is permanent, then it would have to be transferred as a modern firearm. Just as the Howell was I bought last year. Because the conversion ring is permanently attached to the frame and there is no percussion cylinder. Not because it has a loading port.

[Professor Marvel]

According to whom?

Think about it, permanent or not, cutting the loading port does not make it a cartridge firearm. It's still a percussion gun and will function as a percussion gun, albeit with a large capping port. Physically installing the cylinder is what makes it a cartridge firearm and that is not permanent. YOU do that as an individual, which is perfectly legal, unless you're doing it as a money making endeavor.

The license is irrelevant in this context. If cutting the loading port made it a modern firearm, they wouldn't be able to send it directly back to you AS a percussion gun. It would have to be transferred through an FFL. If it's a Howell or a Millington and the conversion is permanent, then it would have to be transferred as a modern firearm. Just as the Howell was I bought last year. Because the conversion ring is permanently attached to the frame and there is no percussion cylinder. Not because it has a loading port.

Sir
You are misconstruing and or misunderstanding the issue.

Once a loading port is cut on a percussion frame, According to the BATF you have manufactured a PMF.
it no longer matters which cylinder you put on the frame.

The defining issue is "permanently modifying" what was previously considered a nonfirearm.

You are apparrently unaware that the BATF shut down several airsoft gun manufacturors because one
BATF technician was able to put real parts in different airsoft guns and make them fire one cartridge.

According the the BATF, "the frame is the firearm"

This is exactly the same as an "unfinished" 80 percent 1911 frame.
As long as the frame does not have certain holes or rails cut, it is a chunk of metal.
Once a person drills the holes and cuts the rails, it is now legally a firearm.
In this case a PMF.
It does not require a serial number until it goes up for sale or thru the hands of An FFL holder.

Cutting a loading port in a percussion revolver is the same thing to the BATF.

As far as I know at this time, The BATF and/or Courts have not produced a specific ruling regarding percusion to cartridge conversions.

Until someone request a letter or ruling, or the BATF decides to chase someone down, the entire issue
Is a dangerous grey area.

It does not matter what or how "some" gunsmiths shipped modified frames - it is an undecided area that
Has not yet been clearly decided either by the BATF or the courts.

Apparently Howells has made a similar statement:

" This conversion cylinder is classified as a "part" by the BATF, and No FFL is required to purchase or ship this product. Once the port has been cut in the frame, it is considered a permanent modification of the revolver and is therefore now classified as a "FIREARM," and all Federal Regulations shall apply."

Found here

https://howellarms.com/product/uberti-steel-1858-army-45-lc-6-round-gated-conversion-kit/

And, frankly, unless you are an officer of the court with experience in BATF issues, in actual court cases, your opinion holds no water. I do not mean to be rude, but its rather like someone trying to argue that a cop cant write you a speeding ticket if he is using LIDAR.

Bottom line - to quote Rooster Cogburn "you do what you think best, Ned".

I will follow my own (and the other guys) advice and err on the side of not provoking the BATF in any way.

[Major 2]

Eloquently said Professor

[Graveyard Jack]

What about drop in cylinders? Does installing a drop-in cylinder not constitute "making a firearm", requiring it be sold through an FFL? No loading port necessary.

And, frankly, unless you are an officer of the court with experience in BATF issues, in actual court cases, your opinion holds no water.

Then my opinion is no different from yours. It's merely an opinion. As there is no official word from the ATF that clears this up.

However, what we do have are licensed gunsmiths that do these conversions on a daily basis that have been in close contact with the ATF about the legality of their work, because they are the ones most at risk and that is the source of my comments. Not armchair postulating.

Once a loading port is cut on a percussion frame, According to the BATF you have manufactured a PMF.

According to the ATF? Or according to your interpretation? If we do not have an official word from the ATF, how can the above be "according to the ATF"?

[pony express]

One thing to remember in all this discussion-whatever the BATF says today, is only relevant today, and might change completely tomorrow. Couple of examples are AR-15 bump stocks, and "pistol braces" that might be used like a buttstock by resting against your shoulder. One day BATF says it's legal, the next day it's not.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Conversionistas,

Regarding the BATF, I am reminded of a phrase an old boss of mine used: "you don't wake up a snake to kill it."

Rev. Chase

[River City John]

My takeaway from this discussion is we need someone to volunteer as a test case to dangle that altered frame with the cut loading channel in front of a BATF agent, or several agents in order to get a consensus, and demonstrate how the cylinders swap in and out, and receive a definitive answer. (Unless they change the laws again.)
Then get back to us here and post a detailed report, assuming they allow phone or internet privileges from prison.
So take notes.

Or do what my wife plans to do with all my guns. Bury 'em with me in the casket. Then the status of a "PMF" becomes moot. Too moot to shoot.

[45 Dragoon]

Wonder what the import arrangement is for the "percussion Model P" that's been offered by Uberti, Pietta and ASM ? It comes with a factory loading gate for crying out loud!!!

Mike

[Abilene]

Wonder what the import arrangement is for the "percussion Model P" that's been offered by Uberti, Pietta and ASM ? It comes with a factory loading gate for crying out loud!!!

Mike

But it can't be made to shoot cartridges by just changing parts.  The loading gate is where they have to cap the nipples.  Seems like I read years ago about someone converting one of those but it took some work.

[Professor Marvel]

Wonder what the import arrangement is for the "percussion Model P" that's been offered by Uberti, Pietta and ASM ? It comes with a factory loading gate for crying out loud!!!

Mike

My good Mike

The difference is in "making a permanent modification to the frame"

In the "1873 percussion" models the difference is twofold
1) nobody makes a commercial conversion cylinder
2) the gate is already there, as originally manufactured, thus no "modification to the frame" once out of the factory.

In this case, a valid comparison is the mossberg shockwave.

To us, it is a "shortbarreled pistol grip shotgun"
The BATF decided it is a manufactured pistol that shoots 12 ga shells. "not a shotgun"  because it did not
Come from the factory designed to be "shot from the shoulder", which is and has been the govt designation of a shotgun.

This is not about "making sense" .
This is about bureaucratic lawyers interpreting legalese "laid in stone" by other bureaucratic goobers.
And splitting hairs, and taking people to court over it.

Once again, it doesn't make any sense, it just *is*

And, again, anyone can legally make a PMF.
And there appear to be avenues to go thru an ffl willing to jump thru the flaming hoops to leagally serialize it then sell it.