Turned down hammers on Open Tops-Like to see pics, how to

[No Horse Hair]

I'm working over a Richard Mason 1860. Changing sight, action job, checkered grips. I want to turn down the hammers some for stiff left hand. I think we can do it in our shop, but I'd like to see some and hear how to. Thanks for any help. No Horse Hair

[Knarley Bob]

First off, I'd get another gun hammer to work on. Now this could be out of the junk pile, or one that has been replaced. Use it to practice on. You'll need to have a way to heat the steel of the hammer (gun) to at least orange hot. And you'll need a solid way to hold it into position. A good sized Cresent wrench, or pipe flattened out that will fit over the spur you'll be bending. The color ranges of the steel will go from red to orange to yellow to white. And from dull to bright of each color. Something this small will undoubtedly change quickly. When you get to a medium orange you are going to use the Cresent wrench or flattened pipe. You don't want to get the whole hammer that hot, just the spur area. Slip it over the spur, and use it as a lever to move the spur to where you want it. You can reheat and do it again if it isn't where you like it, you can even go the other way if needed. Don't throw it into a bucket of water to cool it either, it may crystalize the steel, making it brittle. Know about where you want it before you start, that's where the practice hammer comes in, it will help get the 'feel' of what you are doing.

Now for the bad news, I have never personally done this. But, I have welded for 30+ years, and know a little about heating and bending steel. This is how I would approach this project. If you know a welder or gunsmith, by all means run this by them first. You'll find it's not too far off the mark.

Hope this helps.
KB

[Marshal Will Wingam]

First off, I'd get another gun hammer to work on. Now this could be out of the junk pile, or one that has been replaced. Use it to practice on. You'll need to have a way to heat the steel of the hammer (gun) to at least orange hot. And you'll need a solid way to hold it into position. A good sized Cresent wrench, or pipe flattened out that will fit over the spur you'll be bending. The color ranges of the steel will go from red to orange to yellow to white. And from dull to bright of each color. Something this small will undoubtedly change quickly. When you get to a medium orange you are going to use the Cresent wrench or flattened pipe. You don't want to get the whole hammer that hot, just the spur area. Slip it over the spur, and use it as a lever to move the spur to where you want it. You can reheat and do it again if it isn't where you like it, you can even go the other way if needed. Don't throw it into a bucket of water to cool it either, it may crystalize the steel, making it brittle. Know about where you want it before you start, that's where the practice hammer comes in, it will help get the 'feel' of what you are doing.

Now for the bad news, I have never personally done this. But, I have welded for 30+ years, and know a little about heating and bending steel. This is how I would approach this project. If you know a welder or gunsmith, by all means run this by them first. You'll find it's not too far off the mark.

Hope this helps.
KB

Would it help to wrap the hammer excluding the hammer spur with a wet rag to keep it from getting too hot? Or let the jaws of a vice act as heat sinks to keep the temperature down in the main part of the hammer?

[Knarley Bob]

A wet rag wouldn't be a bad idea, the jaws of the vise will also help. A squirt bottle of water to keep the rag wet would also be an advantage. Just try to keep the heat concentrated on where you want the steel to bend. You don't want a huge heat source like a rosebud, a cutting torch might do the trick.
Just remember, rags burn, and will decrease the grip of the vise somewhat. The top of the vise will be very hot too.......... YouTube may have a video?

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings My good Netizens

My 2 bits, and fyi , i not only did not sleep at a holiday inn, i did not sleep at all last night LOL

K Bob is on the right track!

Ok, firstly, as an amateur knifemaker/blacksmith my advice is a SMALL torch, like a Mapp torch with a pinpoint flame.

Second, aluminum jaws on a bench vice. Only let the hammer spur stick up. Draws the heat from the rest of the hammer bits.

Apply the oinpoint flame at the base of the spur. At red/orange start your bend.
Try to do it in one go.
If you make a little templet / guide to hold next to the spurr you will know how far to go.

When bent to happiness, DO go ahead and plop it in room temp water.
By that time it will be at "black heat"  and it should not get brittle, but you are protecting the rest
of the hammer from having the heat treat adversely affected.

Remmeber, this is a small part, it does not need a big mongo torch.

Hope this helps

[1961MJS]

Hi,

With Respect to heat treating, I READ UP on using the material removal method of shaping a knife.  When you're done, you heat the knife to red hot, quench it in oil making it brittle, wipe the oil off without starting a fire, and then heat the knife in an oven for a few hours at somewhere between 250 and 400 degrees F to temper the steel.

Is this in any way related to what needs to be done to the hammer?

Thanks

[Professor Marvel]

1961

I like to use good old fashion automotive leaf and coil spring steel.
This is an excellent high carbon steel that can be used for a wide variety of implements
From knives to tongs, cold chisels, hot chisels, pry bars, and, well even springs!

It all depends on the tempering.

To harden generic carbon steel heat entire part (knife, hammer, whatever) until steel is
Non-magnetic.

For most common carbon steels this is at orange-red in a dim workshop.

Yellow is too hot, too close to burning the carbon out of the steel.

If you see sparks, that is the carbon burning out... bad juju

Once it is orange red ( a lot of folks use a magnet on a wire handle, its more accurate)

From orange red, Quickly quench in the appropriate fluid ... usually oil .
There are also water quench steels, air quench steels, etc etc.

This hardens the steel . At this point it is  uniformly brittle all the way thru.
The next step , you need to "temper" the item. For knives I like to have a harder edge and a softer
Spine so I gently heat the spine of the knife and watch the rainbow collors run towards the edge,
Stopping where I want it. By quenching it once more. Other folks go by strict temperature and the entire knife has a uniform Hardeness, like most factory knives.

IF you are not concerned about the hardness of the hammers spur, one can let it cool slowly in the air
Or wait until it fades to about black "black heat" and dump in water to just cool quickly.

Quenching at black heat does nothing for hardness as the austentite ( carbon crystaline structure) has to be nonmagnetic is order to align the structure (making it hard) and the fast quench sort of freezes the alignment in place.

Many ancient smiths (and some modern ones) insist on quenching a knife or sword horizontally and aligning
It with magnetic north, the theory being that this enhances the magnetic alignemtn of the austentite
At the moment of quenching.

There is also "normalizing"  in which you bring steel up to red-orange then bury it in ashes to let it cool slowly, making the steel deliberatelly soft for ease of cutting and filing.

It is handy when forging, if one is as unskilled as I am, I forge it as far as I can, then normalize for easy finish work, then heat treat. My several mentors were so skilled they would forge an item to the final shape
With no filing or grinding needed, except for final fitting!

Lastly, most C&B revolver hammers I have played with were only case hardened for the important bits.
One wants to protect this around the wear parts and the cock and half cock notches, etc.
Hope this helps

[Coffinmaker]

   No Horse 

I was going to leave this one alone as I don't care for "bent" hammers.  Personal Opine, don't take it personal.  Just Business (stolen famous movie line).

Also, Knarley Bob and the Perfesser have you on the right track.


Butt, before you do ANYTHING to your Richards/Mason, first clean up and correctly FIT the Barrel to Arbor and refit the Wedge if necessary.


Yes, Auntie Ethel, People are Hazardous to Yer Health

[45 Dragoon]

I too .  .  .  was gonna leave this un alone  till now  .  .  .
Gotta agree with thuther Mike about "bent hammers"  ( just personal). OK, now I'm done.   

Mike

[Knarley Bob]

I ended up putting some "Mentado" hammers on my Vaqueros a while back. After 30 years of throwing steel around, my hands are pretty beat up. Age does a job on our bodies. Same reason I have gone from shooting "Duelist" to two handed, and now I have to be going to a Crossdraw rig. My right shoulder has been repaired, and my left needs to be replaced. If I want to keep shooting I have to "Improvise and adapt" to persavere.........

KB

[Professor Marvel]

Mike and mike, err Dragoon and Coffin

I am the sort that just HAS to modify things.
sometimes for teh better, often for the worse

I kinda like Bisley style hammers, and rather than try to make a pricey Bisley fit, or weld the crap out of an 1851
i found it remarkably easy to bend the 1851 just enough to be comfy.

The good part is , I have lotsa prior experience bending lotsa percussion rifle hammers till they fit correctly and hit the cone correctly!
And flintloch hammers for proper geometry.

Later this year after I get my new workshop set up, my buddy and I are going to go back and forth between his shop
and my shop doing goofy and terrible things to colt 1851/1860's and Remmy 1858's .
I have the lathe , milling machine, knife grinding, and heat treating gear.
he has the big arc welder, the gas welder, and the TIG!

mmmmmm TIG .....

We have some terible plans that purists will hate, but that Steampunkers will love!

yha
prof marbles

[Coffinmaker]

HEY PERFESSER 

I GREEDLY await those Voodoo things You are to Do soon.  Understanding the descriptive analysis will be some sterile without the appropriate Tintypes??


Yes Auntie Agness, People are Still quite Hazardous to Yer Health

[Abilene]

I'm another that hates the looks of turned down hammers on OT's and conversions.  But hey, if you like it or need it, go for it.  You asked about pictures.  Somewhere on this site a few years ago Tame Bill posted either a story with pics or a video of his fancy engraved conversions with turned down hammers (pretty sure he shoots duelist).  But I can't seem to find it.

[DeaconKC]

Not turned down, but I would love some wider, target style hammers for my OTs! Any ideas?

[No Horse Hair]

Lots of  good info. ...It has been suggested by a metal worker to make some fine cuts in back of the hammer, bend to suit and then tig the cuts closed.  I may lean toward this method to save putting so much heat into the steel.

[Abilene]

I'm another that hates the looks of turned down hammers on OT's and conversions.  But hey, if you like it or need it, go for it.  You asked about pictures.  Somewhere on this site a few years ago Tame Bill posted either a story with pics or a video of his fancy engraved conversions with turned down hammers (pretty sure he shoots duelist).  But I can't seem to find it.

Okay, I found it in a topic "guns of the darksiders".  Here is Tame Bill's video:

[Professor Marvel]

Oh My!
thanks Abilene!

that is the bend I prefer!

No Horse -
cutting then tigging is both more complicated, and still adds heat.
pinpoint heating and bending is actually quite easy and does no harm !

Deacon -
wider hammers ( something I plan to do to the remmies) is easily done
amongst the methods

1) weldup the sides. then grind to shape, file in the grooves
   TIG is not nessecary, a cheap wire welder will do. Tay away from stickwelders!
   practice on scrap first

2) silver solder or nickle braze.
    either add stock to the sides or cut off spur and silver solder/braze  a big chunk on
    Grind to fit .

I have actually built up the sides of a hammer with nickle silver brazing rod, then ground and filed
Then used a checkering hammer to checker the top of the spur.

Nicklesilver brazing rod is a ducky thing, available in hardware stores under the bernzomatic tradename.
it has a blue plastic flux coating.
Looks quite nice polished, but will not take bluing.

ps i am STILL trying to get photosof my S&W .455 Second Model Hand Ejector up.
trying to find the box with the cables.....

[Coffinmaker]

  DEACON 

Some folks have been known to source (purchase) a pair of the "Wide Low" hammers used by Uberti for some of Cimarron's guns.  They then ship off the hammers from the Open Tops to Broomstick Jay, who cuts the thumb buttons off and welds the wide low thumb buttons to the Open Top Hammers.  A rather neat job as well.

That's confusing.  Boobstick cuts ALL the thumb buttons off and welds the wide buttons to the Open Top Hammers.  The Uberti Cartridge gun hammers become sacrificial.  Collateral damage if you will.  Hopefully I have now sort of explained whit I started to mention.  Need more Caffeine!!

Drive Careful

[Abilene]

  DEACON 

Some folks have been known to source (purchase) a pair of the "Wide Low" hammers used by Uberti for some of Cimarron's guns.  They then ship off the hammers from the Open Tops to Broomstick Jay, who cuts the thumb buttons off and welds the wide low thumb buttons to the Open Top Hammers.  A rather neat job as well.

That's confusing.  Boobstick cuts ALL the thumb buttons off and welds the wide buttons to the Open Top Hammers.  The Uberti Cartridge gun hammers become sacrificial.  Collateral damage if you will.  Hopefully I have now sort of explained whit I started to mention.  Need more Caffeine!!

Drive Careful

I just had a thought (uh-oh!) and have not heard of this before.  Wide-spur 1911 hammers are much less expensive and much more available than wide-spur Uberti or Ruger hammers.  I know the angles are different where the spur attaches to the rest of the hammer and they aren't quite as wide as some of the wide revolver hammers, but still much wider than the stock Uberti spurs and since it is being cut off and welded I wonder if that would be an alternative??

[DeaconKC]

Oooh! Great ideas guys! Especially the 1911 hammer idea. Thanks!