Annealing the brass?

[Knarley Bob]

I'm going to be shooting BP through my Spencer, and using Starline brass. Is it necessary to anneal the brass?

KB

[El Supremo]

Hello, Knarley Bob:

There are varying opinions about needing to anneal Starline or other brands of 56-56/50 Spencer brass. Avid Spencer shooters have shared that they lost cases from mouth splits until they annealed.  One friend gave up, until he annealed.  Others haven't bothered.

My experience in favor of annealing straight walled cases is driven by the cost savings via longer case life, if annealed properly. I do not see any significant accuracy benefit w Spencer's, just longer case life.

Test for yourself.  Take five cases and repeatedly size, expand, load and fire to see how long they last without annealing.  Then do the same with annealing before sizing.  Mine last longer.  Rather than the powder pressure, black vs. smokeless, it's the firing expansion and sizing that work the brass. 

If you anneal, be sure not to overheat the case to avoid damaging the metal.  I salt bath anneal.  Annealing involves both temp and duration. 

There is considerable debate, some supported with expensive equipment and hardness test data. One intriguing video by a proponent of induction vs. salt bath seems to ignore his premise that if temp and time are achieved annealing occurs,  Then  he adds that even with salt bath's annealing discoloration from correct time + temp, the case was not annealed.  Based on my salt bath annealing results, I respectfully disagree.  There is convincing (target group size) evidence by phenomenal marksmen (Eric Cortina), that anneal their center-fire, smokeless, bottle-necked long range cases. The technical data will confuse even an expert, so I just cut to the chase and tested my straight-walled cases for mouth life to determine what works.  Salt bath works for me and the equipment is much less expensive than some others.

FWIW, I make my 56-50 cases from cut-back STARLINE 50-70 Sharps cases.  The case wall thickness of the cut-back case is thin enough that the mouth should not need inside reaming. The STARLINE metallurgy is tops and I am very pleased with the quality and cost.

Be sure to properly clean the black powder fouling from the cases to prevent corrosion.  I don't bother to tumble anymore.  Looks don't matter to me. 

Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Knarley Bob]

I have noticed a big difference in my 45-70 and 38-55 cases. No longer get all the soot on the outside of the brass. I use a propane torch and a drill to anneal mine. Starline is notorious for being hard.

[Sedalia Dave]

I anneal all my rifle brass. Makes it last a lot longer.

I built mine using these plans.

Cost me a hair over $100.00 and works great.  For shorter cases I just add a spacer made from some scraps of an R-Max insulation panel.

[Coffinmaker]

  OK, OK, OK, O   

Bob:

I'M without doubt the most vocal advocate of annealing on the forum.  I am THE jump up and down Champion.  Bar None.  Except for Handguns (different thread).

Back to the Spencer.  I don't own nor shoot a Spencer.  Butt.  Itza Rifle.  If you have the slightest amount of Blow-By, you need to Anneal your cases so they seal the chamber and the Rifle will shoot cleaner.  If you're shooting Fire-Form'd cases, you need to anneal, the cases will last lotz longer.  If you're splitting the case mouth, you need to anneal.

Now Here Be The Deal BOB!!  YOU answered your own questions in your own post about your results with 45-70 cases and 38-55 cases.  Stopped your Blow-By cold.  Bet you don't split cases enough you don't notice you don't split cases. 

Your Method of Annealing works just fine.  I also use a cordless drill motor with the right size socket on the end and prop. torch.  Works a treat.  Not only that, but you can use the cordless drill motor for all sorts of other things, like drilling, screw driving, polishing, etc.  Just keep what yer already doing.

Remembering of course, People ARE Hazardous to Yer Health!!

[greyhawk]

Guys ? does it have to be this complexicated??

I stand em up in a tray of water (limits the heat transfer down the case - set the water level wherever ya want) - do about 50 at the time
Put on sunglasses and turn the workshop lights off - Have at it with the oxy torch - when ya see green in the flame tip him over into the water and move to the next one (use a bamboo meat skewer for the tipping bit - saves burning end off fingers)
Annealing is absurdly simple and super effective.

[El Supremo]

Hello:

Here's more on case annealing:

Since my Post above, two BPCR shooters shared that they get upwards of FORTY shots from NEW, factory annealed (STRAIGHT WALL) 45-70 cases with NO subsequent annealing when the cases are used in a specific gun.  They believe that the primer pocket or primer flash hole may "go" before the case neck splits.  They had no accuracy issues from not annealing.

Another eye-opener was from a respected/capable (Romano and Armisport) Spencer shooter that said he'd had mouth splits in his Romano Spencer rifle after the 1st, 2nd or 3rd firing using RMC cases purchased directly from RMC many years ago.  He switched to an Armisport Spencer rifle because of cheaper Starline 56-50 brass, and THEN began to flame anneal with NO mouth splits from there on.     

I acquired that Romano Spencer rifle #10030 a while back and decided to run comparative RMC and Starline 56-50 case life tests using it AND another Romano Spencer carbine #10031.  None of the RMC 56-50 cases that had split for the other Romano Spencer rifle owner were available, and he could not recall if they had annealing discoloration when new.

I used both current "Outland family" production RMC and Starline's "Armisport chamber" 56-50 cases and CH4D 56-50 dies with a .511" expander plug.  Both Romano Spencer's have chambers cut with the same high-quality, piloted reamer and their measured dimensions are fine.  Some Armisport Spencer's have been reported to have looser chamber dimensions.

The cases were NEW, factory annealed with annealing discoloration.
They were full-length sized and I did another salt bath annealing once, prior to the first shot.
From then the cases were not annealed, and were loaded with 40 gr. Swiss 3Fg, a .512" OD Romano 315gr alloy bullet, SPG lube and a Win LRP.
They were full length sized, expanded and lightly crimped.

Surprisingly, each brand of case in both Romano's went 25 firings with NO indication of neck splits or flash hole enlargement.  I gave up after 25 shots. 
So, what caused the older production RMC cases to split? 
And do all factory annealed cases present discolored necks?

I spoke with Kody Outland who has made hundreds of 56-50 cases from turned bar stock for me over many years.  He said his family uses the same brass bar stock vendor and the identical brass alloy as had the prior owner.  All of mine, as delivered, have annealing discoloration. He confirmed that all RMC's brass that his family produces are annealed and present the usual neck discoloration.

My reason for asking the obvious was that a friend purchased (at a gun show) "new" 30-30 commercial rifle cases made by a major "name" company, that did not present neck discoloration. My friend contacted the Production Manager at that company and was assured that all of its cases, including the ones he'd purchased, were factory annealed.  Further investigation disclosed that the 30-30 cases, while new and unfired, had been tumbled by an intermediate owner, and the usual discoloration was removed.  My guess is that the batch of OLDER, non-Outland family production RMC 56-50 cases made by a prior owner of RMC might have gotten out UNANNEALED.

Kody had no sample RMC 56-50 cases that were not annealed, so there was no easy way for me to test that guess.

My take is that if the case is factory annealed, as it should be, and the shooter anneals once before use, either RMC's or Starline's should, absent chamber or case dimension issues, last a long time without intermediate annealing.

Another puzzle is does lead pot annealing, even at longer duration than hotter salts over a shorter time, produce full restoration of ductility or because of lead's lower temperature, only partial annealing? 
My guess is that because straight walled factory annealed cases with black powder, are already set for approximately twenty firings, lead immersion adds little.

One other thing, based on questions from a couple Spencer shooters:
Many 1860 Model original Spencers and a few of the ten Romano copies I have present a small missing chamber wall section at 9:00.  This area "wedge" is paper-thin adjacent to the long blade extractor. Larry told me it is not an issue.  The Romano Spencer rifle was this way and the carbine was not.  During all my case life testing there was zero case expansion or "wedge" marks on the cases.  Extraction was fine. 

All the best,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[El Supremo]

Hello:

There is helpful annealing info in a recent N-SSA Forum Post by "Carolina Reb" within a Thread: "New Replica Spencer owner has questions" by "Eterry, approx 15APR24. I prefer not to post links to other Forums, and suggest the N-SSA Form's Small Arms section be reviewed for the Thread.

Carolina Reb shares that when annealing short, cut-down cases, to not anneal with flame because of heat migration into the base.  Instead, anneal with molten lead. 

I use molten salts, water quench to stop heat migration, and have had no case life issues. For straight walled cases and black powder, lead annealing works well enough to produce annealed mouths that last upwards of 25 firings.  The primer flash hole will erode before the mouth splits, so no need to use a specific mixture of salts.

Thanks to Carolina Reb on N-SSA, Arizona Trooper, here.
Most respectfully.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Trailrider]

The technique I used was to fill a pan with water coming half-way up the length of the shortened .50-70 brass, with the pan on a cheap lazysusan. I used a propane torch played on the brass sticking above the water. When the brass discolored significantly, I tipped the case into the water, quenching it. Never had a problem with the brass, and the head remained the correct hardness.

[El Supremo]

Hello:

Sorry, my quirk, but I have a thing about Forum Threads and Posts that omit important info or that are not revised when new info arises.  My approach is to edit my orig post to include the added item. This Forum, which I highly respect, does not add a recorded, reader visible indicator when an earlier post was revised.  Some do. Not a criticism.

Anyway, I have revised my May 2024 post to include that with the closing of Ballistic Recreations in Canada, and eventual issues acquiring the correct salts formulation, molten lead annealing works well enough in straight wall BP cases to help cases last upwards of 25 firings. It seems the case accuracy life limitation is primer flash hole erosion after 25 or so shots, which is less than the annealed mouths produce. Those that share lead pot annealing is not adequate should research it on the Shiloh Sbarps Forum where I learned of it. It was fine (enough) for those guru's before molten salts arose.

I have been cutting down STARLINE 50-70/90 Sharps cases to make 56-50's, and after lead pot or salts reannealing, they last just as long as factory annnealed RMC's. 

Smiles,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[John Brooder]

Knarley Bob,
Thank you for starting this discussion and many thanks to those who responded!  Very helpful for a newbie like me.
Best,
John Brooder