spencer brass and mold for original

[kendudley]

Need mould and brass 56 50.  any ideas where?   Ken

[El Supremo]

Hello, Ken:
Congrat's on the original Spencer.

As a SSS Member, you might Search here and read the "SORI" section.

Short answers:
Call Dave Gullo at Buffalo Arms.
He should have a proven mould.
Accurate Bullet Molds in Salt Lake City sells a popular bullet mold #51-320C.
Have it bored to cast in Lyman NEW #2 alloy, which is approx.16 Bhn, to an AS-CAST diameter of YOUR Spencer's groove diameter plus .002", and then size it to .001" over YOUR bore's GROOVE DIAMETER. 
SPG bullet lube works well with black powder.
Please AVOID ANY smokeless loads in an original Spencer.
Cases can be from Rocky Mountain Cartridge in Cody, WY, but they MUST be reannealed after two firings to avoid mouth brittleness.  Alternatively, and much cheaper: Get STARLINE 50-70/90 brass, and cut them to length. 
They, too, will need annealing after a few shots.
The Starline 56-50 cases are for the Armisport reproduction and have a slightly smaller RIM OD, which can cause extraction issues.
Ballistic Recreations in Canada can supply their SALT BATH annealing gear, which avoids using open flame and damaging cases. 
Dies can be CH4D, which Buffalo can supply.  The rest is in SORI. 

PLEASE keep us posted on your progress.  Thanks.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Sedalia Dave]

I have had great success with the 51-350S from accurate molds. It works in both my original Spencer and both of my reproductions. Accurate Molds allows you to customize the dimensions at no additional cost. I customized the design by adjusting the diameter to be .002" over the groove diameter 3 inches forward of the breach.  I chose this area as many originals have a tapered bore and this ensures that the bullet will not experience gas cutting resulting in leadding of the barrel. My sizing die is .001" over the bore diameter. Buffalo arms sells sizing dies

The next change was to eliminate the crimp groove. This allows me to easily adjust the OAL of the loaded cartridge. I have no issues getting a good crimp when using soft alloys like 20:1 or WW.

I increased the amount of lube carried by changing the lube groove diameter from .455" to .420" and increasing its width by .050" in each direction. (.100" overall). Did this so that I don't run the chance of out of lube in my rifle.

[Sedalia Dave]

I have both Lyman and RCBS 56-50 dies The bullet diameter will dictate which one will work the best. If your bullet diameter is less than .515" use RCBS 56-50 dies. If .515" or larger use Lyman 56-50 dies.

The RCBS dies are designed to work with the Spencer reproductions and will properly roll crimp smaller diameter bullets. The Lyman dies are cut down 50-70 dies and will not properly roll crimp smaller diameter bullets. With small diameter bullets you end up with a taper crimp that doesn't properly hold the bullet.

Right now 50 caliber brass is out of stock. Your best bet is to put in a backorder with Starline or Buffalo Arms. Once they get enough demand they'll make a run.

You'll need to trim that brass to length. The Lyman Accu-Trimmer will work nicely. The cutter head is of sufficient diameter to properly trim the brass. It uses your shell holder so there is no issue with rim diameter.  After trimming 10 cases I bought the power trimmer adapter to use with it.  It is worth the extra cost. You'll need the 50A pilot. I found lubing the cutter with a drop of 30 weight oil every 3 to 5 cases improved the cutting action.

I used a small pipe cutter to trim the cases down to within .010" of the final length. If you go slow you will not deform the case too much. If it does deform enough that it will not fit over the pilot. Open the case mouth with the expander plug in your die set. Don't go all the way. Just open the mouth enough that it will fit over the pilot.

[El Supremo]

Thanks for two great posts, Sedalia Dave:

I clicked a well-deserved "Like" on both.  Pass Go, and collect $200.

The Lyman case trimmer seems to be THE answer, esp. with shortened 50-70's. Please tell us the maximum diameter of the Lyman cutter.

BTW, "Blair" here had told me about originals with slightly tapered bores beginning at the chamber, that due to wear, can be a challenge to measure.

All the best.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Sedalia Dave]

Thanks. Now where to spend all that Monopoly Money. 

The cutter diameter is .590". Lyman uses the same shaft and cutter diameter on their Accu-trimmer, Universal Trimmer and their 50 BMG trimmer.

An added bonus when you purchase the power trim shaft is that it comes with a better way to adjust OAL. The Accu-Trimmer stop doesn't have a really good method for fine adjustment. The Universal trimmer comes with a two piece stop that threads together. You set the coarse adjustment first and then turn the fine adjustment part till you get the exact OAL you want. Both the coarse and fine adjustments are held in place via set screws.

[El Supremo]

Thanks again, Dave:
My cut-down, UNSIZED Starline case mouth OD's are.548"+/- because of  slight out-of-roundness.  The Lyman's .590" is great.
Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[mgmradio]

Buffalo arms has the 56-50 cartridges in stock for the Armi Sport guns. These will work in an original with slight modification to the rim. I made a tool to bump the rim size up.
  You will need to drill a hole in a block of iron slightly larger than the case diameter then cut a refinished rim sized grove in the top with a slightly raised edge in the inner edge. You can then place a cartridge in the hole and crush it in a vice or hit it with a hammer to bump the rim to proper size.

[matt45]

Good work

[kendudley]

hey mgm, above my pay grade,  great idea.   want to sell one?   Ken

[Two Flints]

MGM,

How about making a short video so we can see how the "bumping" works.  Great idea.

Two Flints

[El Supremo]

Hello, Mike:

In addition to Ken, I would also buy a couple.
Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[mgmradio]

  I'll have to talk to my buddy to see when we can make some when he gets back from hunting. We are busy trying to make Morse carbine cartridges from sheet brass ar the moment. I suspect we could make some cheap ones out of round stock as the first one was overkill.
  As for a video, I'm not really up on that kind of thing and it would be very short as it only takes a couple of seconds to spank a cartridge base up.
   Mike

[El Supremo]

Thanks, MGMRADIO:
Will standby.  No rush for mine. 
All the best on the Morse project.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[kendudley]

standing by too,     great idea,  check will be in the mail when you say GO.    Ken

[kendudley]

I've ordered 30 pieces of 56 50 from S and S.
     they say  they are for the Taylor repro.
  I have an original of course...
    so..I e mailed with the question of whether they would work in an original.
  he replied that they WILL work in an original 56 50 but NOT the  older56 52
I have found this to be true, but when they come, I'll test them.
    Ken

[kendudley]

Ok, I'm done.   no more $$ to throw at the Spencer.   
    450 mould $42
   too small maybe???OK...but I'll keep it anyway.
    350 mould just arrived $160
    have enough  50 shells. dont need to order more...
     ordered another 30 from BA  $60 more can never have enough 56 50's on hand
    I'm really done now.
    ordered Blakesley quick loader from S and S  $165
   Now I'm really done...

  I wake up at 3AM and think of things I need to order.   
    I have to drink more before bedtime....
   
    DON'T LOOK AT ME LIKE THAT YOU ALL DO THIS TOO!!!

[matt45]

I'm only constrained by the room in my gun safe and my wife 

[kendudley]

Hey Matt,   
     I have the same gun room and wife.   'another gun, how many do you need?    she just doesn't get it.
   so  says I ....
   HONEY  I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I CHEAT ON YOU ALL THE TIME...
     BUT IT'S IN A GUN SHOP
  I love you says her. and I got kissed.  Ken

[kendudley]

by the way,  the 56 50 cases from BA came and work just fine in my original spencer 1865.  I'm using the 350 mould that just came and they load us nice, and cycle and eject ok.   to the range soon.   Ken
$1.85 each for over 10  I bought 30 for $60 or so...Ken