P 37 Webley Holster

[Major 2]

I picked up an P 37 (WW 2) holster for my Webley...
There is an outside vendor of Militaria that has some of his items on consignment in the Museum Gift Shop.

Employees get a 25% discount if we buy something, I bought this original M38 British web holster
and with the discount a great price 

It is for display with my Webley, I'd like figure the out the Contractor, it is faded but I can read

? S & U Ltd, 1941   the ? may be a an I , L  or  J.
I suppose it could be just S&U Ltd, 1941 but I think I see something there
EDIT: "M S & U Ltd." (Montreal Suspender & Umbrella Limited)

I PM'ed Rattlesnake Jack thinking he may be my best shot, and one else have a idea?

[RattlesnakeJack]

 Major2,

Just got done responding to your PM (which generated the first e-mail notice in my queue this morning) ...

That is "M S & U Ltd." (Montreal Suspender & Umbrella Limited) one of the two primary Canadian producers of Pattern 1937 web equipment.  The other was Zephyr Looms & Textiles Limited (Z. L. & T. Ltd.)



Should also be a separate C-Broadarrow property mark stamped somewhere in the vicinity, although it could be even less legible ...

[RattlesnakeJack]

As I also mentioned in the PM, the correct term to use in referring to this type of web equipment would be "P'37" ("Pattern 1937") since the British/Commonwealth militaries tended to use that term rather than the American "Model" ...

Thus, for example, when production of the British Pattern 1914 .303 Enfield rifle was halted and switched over to rifles chambered in .30-06, it became the US Model 1917 Enfield ...

[Major 2]

As stated in the PM ...THANK YOU !  "M S & U Ltd." (Montreal Suspender & Umbrella Limited)
very cool !

Now that you mention M S & U Ltd,  I believe I can see that faint M I thought was a smudge.

I believe the broad arrow is ahead of the M now that I know what to look for, very faint also.

Also, there is a Web belt consigned, I'll examine it and look for the marks, if present it will join this holster.

And thanks for the correction to P for Pattern... I was aware of the P1914 and M1917
I had an Eddystone and a now Winchester (not mine) both M1917 in the museum

[St. George]

If the rifle's chambered for .303 British, it's a 'P14' for 'Pattern 14' - iif it's for .30-06, it's a 'Model 1917'.

In general use, the nomenclature is important - in museum use, it's paramount.

Webbing markings often show up better if dampened.

Scouts Out!

[Major 2]

Here are a couple more photos...

I the consigned belt checks out as expected it will join the holster
I'll be on the lookout for Revolver ammo pooch as in the wet photo below...

and I'm looking for a Tankers holster as well as below

[RattlesnakeJack]

Major2,

Not intending to blow your mind ... but:

a) another terminology "correction": strictly speaking, a holster was actually referred to in British/Commonwealth military terminology as a "pistol case" ... 

b) the standard-issue pistol of the Canadian military during WWII was actually the Smith & Wesson Military & Police Model revolver, chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge (and thus for the .British .380 Service Revolver cartridge which was a military version of the .38 S&W.)  Canada acquired in excess of 118,000 such S&W revolvers, and only about 3,500 of the standard UK-issue .380 No. 2 Enfield revolver (starting in 1937, for issue to the Royal Canadian Air Force) but there were no official Canadian acquisitions of .380 Webley revolvers (which were only secondary military issue in the UK ... 

Mind you, lots of Canadian-made web equipment was sent to help equip the UK forces ... so your Canadian-made pistol case is actually quite suitable for your Webley ...

As you presumably know, like many military carriage systems, P'37 Web Equipment consisted of various component pieces which could be assembled in a variety of ways. 

Once my vision returns to some semblance of order following the cataract surgery I've recently undergone, and I then get some new glasses so I can actually see clearly again and can locate things without so much squinting and peering, I should be able to provide you with a PDF file of the complete original Pattern 1937 Web Equipment Manual I have, if you wish. (Can't seem to lay my hands on it right now.  It is a 1940 Canadian reprinting of the British 1939 manual.)

In the meantime, here are a few images from it that I have in a file on my computer ...

Firstly, the cover page and Figure 9 illustrating the "Set for Officers, Certain W.Os. and N.C.Os." being worn -




The relevant pages itemizing the various standard "sets" of P37 equipment, with highlighting for the sets which incorporated a pistol case/holster -



Figure 8, showing the "Set for Officers, Certain W.Os. and N.C.Os." laid out, assembled, (back of waistbelt facing up) -



Figures 10 and 11, "Set for Personnel Armed With Pistol Only" -





Figure 20, showing the early "Pistol Case with Cartridge Loops" - otherwise termed the "Pistol Case, Royal Armoured Corps" - being worn -


I don't seem to have a scan of Figure 21 saved ... which I presume is a similar "assembled layout seen from the back", like the others above. 

As you might surmise, this was the early version of the pistol case with cartridge loops you posted a photo of, above.  The theory was that the extreme drop of the holster (which was strapped to the leg) would minimize hangups of the holstered pistol for personnel exiting confined armoured vehicle hatches ... but the low-slung position was not all that convenient ... and the pistol could still get hung up on the edge of the hatch ... but then it was way down there on the leg, making it even more difficult to clear the hangup. Not long into the war, the design was altered to the much shorter drop style you show, with the leg strap eliminated ... and most of the original long ones got altered to the much shorter type ... with the result that unaltered long ones are relatively rare.

My collection of P'37 Equipment includes an unissued Canadian-made version of the long style -

[RattlesnakeJack]

Major2,

Now that I think of it, I have all sorts of P'37 web stuff I would be willing to dispose of ...

...  virtually a complete set (mostly Canadian-production, and largely in "unissued" condition) ... which I somehow ended up with after initially deciding (like you) that I should get just a couple or three holsters for some of my handguns ...

As you can see from the list of items in the P'37 Manual, even if you just wanted to assemble the standard sets incorporating a pistol case, you'd want waist belts, shoulder braces, ammunition pouch(es), a compass pocket (identical in appearance and construction to the ammunition pouch, but lined with heavy felt to cushion the compass), standard and/or officer's haversack, binocular case (with suitable British or Canadian-issue binoculars, of course) et cetera ...

Once my vision recovers a bit, I could descend to the dungeon and drag out the box containing my web gear, to see what I have ... far as I can recall (unless I disposed of any of it and have forgotten) I have all of the above ... "and much more" ...

I did have one of the short-drop "tanker holsters" in fairly decent "issued" condition ...

[Major 2]

Thanks, and yes, I'd like the PDF file, when you have mended.
Much apricated....

My modest collection includes a S&W M&P I acquired in 2020... it dates to Oct. 1945

So far, I have a few pieces of web gear toward a set, This Pistol case, a Bren pouch, a set of braces, and pair of 303 Enfield Magazine pouches...
I'm working toward an exhibit on full mannequin for a D Day diorama, I will assemble by June.   

[38OVI]

Just to check, I pulled out my manual my dad had:   

FM 23-6
War Department                                                 Chapter 1. GENERAL
Basic Field Manual                            The United States rifle, caliber .30, M 1917, is a breech-loading magazine rifle
                                                      of the bolt type.  It is sometimes called the Enfield rifle.
U.S.RIFLE, CALIBER .30
m 1917 (ENFIELD)

AUGUST 3, 1942

[Major 2]

For Rattlesnake Jack

I think for $12.50 my cost why not

[RattlesnakeJack]

Major2,

The belt, as you will have surmised, is British and post-war (1953).  If I'm not mistaken, blackened metal fittings like that did not appear until after WWII ... but perhaps, if the underlying metal is brass (or brass-like) the coating could be removed ...

The manufacturer, by the way, is "M. Wright & Sons Limited" ... originally established in 1860, and still in business!     
https://www.mwright.co.uk

Here is a 1916 stamp of theirs from a piece of Pattern 1908 web equipment -

[Major 2]

I had not considered the black coating. Thanks for that heads up.
May be more trouble than its worth to remove it.
I'll just put it back and wait for a proper dated piece.
.
I do have some time as mid-May is my timetable

[RattlesnakeJack]

Once my post-surgery eyesight stabilizes a bit more, I'll dig out my stash of P'37 gear and see what I may be able to contribute. 

[Major 2]

The D-Day exhibit in scale mockup... The mannequins would be 3-D not flat cutouts as depicted here.

[smoke]

There was some late WW2 P37 webbing that used the blackened fittings....allegedly.  I have an absurd collection of Canadian/UK p37 gear and so far I have not found a 44/45 dated piece that has blackened fittings.

FYI for a DD display it would be brass press studs on the pouches not the QD ones.

Major2, I still have that uniform I need to send you for the museum. 

[smoke]

Major2,

Not intending to blow your mind ... but:

a) another terminology "correction": strictly speaking, a holster was actually referred to in British/Commonwealth military terminology as a "pistol case" ... 

b) the standard-issue pistol of the Canadian military during WWII was actually the Smith & Wesson Military & Police Model revolver, chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge (and thus for the .British .380 Service Revolver cartridge which was a military version of the .38 S&W.)  Canada acquired in excess of 118,000 such S&W revolvers, and only about 3,500 of the standard UK-issue .380 No. 2 Enfield revolver (starting in 1937, for issue to the Royal Canadian Air Force) but there were no official Canadian acquisitions of .380 Webley revolvers (which were only secondary military issue in the UK ... 

Mind you, lots of Canadian-made web equipment was sent to help equip the UK forces ... so your Canadian-made pistol case is actually quite suitable for your Webley ...

As you presumably know, like many military carriage systems, P'37 Web Equipment consisted of various component pieces which could be assembled in a variety of ways. 

Once my vision returns to some semblance of order following the cataract surgery I've recently undergone, and I then get some new glasses so I can actually see clearly again and can locate things without so much squinting and peering, I should be able to provide you with a PDF file of the complete original Pattern 1937 Web Equipment Manual I have, if you wish. (Can't seem to lay my hands on it right now.  It is a 1940 Canadian reprinting of the British 1939 manual.)

In the meantime, here are a few images from it that I have in a file on my computer ...

Firstly, the cover page and Figure 9 illustrating the "Set for Officers, Certain W.Os. and N.C.Os." being worn -




The relevant pages itemizing the various standard "sets" of P37 equipment, with highlighting for the sets which incorporated a pistol case/holster -



Figure 8, showing the "Set for Officers, Certain W.Os. and N.C.Os." laid out, assembled, (back of waistbelt facing up) -



Figures 10 and 11, "Set for Personnel Armed With Pistol Only" -





Figure 20, showing the early "Pistol Case with Cartridge Loops" - otherwise termed the "Pistol Case, Royal Armoured Corps" - being worn -


I don't seem to have a scan of Figure 21 saved ... which I presume is a similar "assembled layout seen from the back", like the others above. 

As you might surmise, this was the early version of the pistol case with cartridge loops you posted a photo of, above.  The theory was that the extreme drop of the holster (which was strapped to the leg) would minimize hangups of the holstered pistol for personnel exiting confined armoured vehicle hatches ... but the low-slung position was not all that convenient ... and the pistol could still get hung up on the edge of the hatch ... but then it was way down there on the leg, making it even more difficult to clear the hangup. Not long into the war, the design was altered to the much shorter drop style you show, with the leg strap eliminated ... and most of the original long ones got altered to the much shorter type ... with the result that unaltered long ones are relatively rare.

My collection of P'37 Equipment includes an unissued Canadian-made version of the long style -

M.S.&U. and Z.L.&T. both made the long drop Tanker.  I got lucky on ebay a few years back and got a minty M.S.&U. for about $80 shipped.  Got one for myself and buddy who collect UK.  I still need the Z.L.&T.

I sent you a pm about that PDF.

[Major 2]

There was some late WW2 P37 webbing that used the blackened fittings....allegedly.  I have an absurd collection of Canadian/UK p37 gear and so far I have not found a 44/45 dated piece that has blackened fittings.

FYI for a DD display it would be brass press studs on the pouches not the QD ones.

Major2, I still have that uniform I need to send you for the museum.

Thank you Smoke

The model just has some genaric internet photos size and pasted too coroplast for the visual.
We will dress the real mannequins; with authentic battle dress we are trying to acquire.

Rattlesnake Jacks help has been very helpful.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Gentlemen,

A couple of you have messaged/e-mailed me expressing interest in receiving the pdf file I mentioned.  I am quite willing to share it, but for one small problem ...

Although I know for a fact that I scanned the entire manual, and assembled the whole thing into a pdf file, I can't for the life of me locate the blasted thing in my computer files (nor the folder of the complete scan ... the images I shared above are from a few I have in a general P'37 Web Equipment file...)

My next step, of course, was to look for the original manual itself, so I could re-scan it  ... but do you think I can lay my hands on it?  It is here somewhere, but until I turn it up, recreating the pdf file will unfortunately be delayed ...

Doing that, as well as digging out my P'37 gear to confirm exactly what I've got and may be prepared to dispose of, will also be hampered by the fact that I'm recovering from cataract surgery, and can't even go to get new glasses (in a much reduced, but still necessary, correction strength) for a few weeks at least.  I'll grope around in the meantime, since even a blind hog can find an acorn once in a while, as they say ...   Ain't it fun getting old?   

[RattlesnakeJack]

In the meantime, here is a link which may be of interest, in lieu of the original manual ...
https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/equipment/loadbearing/1937pattern.htm